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Thread: A Mozambique question

  1. #11
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    Forget it folks, I was simply asking why it wasn't part of matches as the technique seems part of what folks might encounter, esp. given Tom Givens' post.

    So, the mention of drop targets was not to have them in USPSA but to mention in that in training events (of which I've done many), we used reactive targets, some that needed the head shot to drop. John Hearne (a member here, specializes in such targets). The idea was that Mozambiques are found elsewhere - IDPA and training, so why not UPSA?

    I thank folks for the practice suggestions - I am well aware of such. Dry fire for a Mozambique can't really be accomplished with a 1911 or Glock. Yes, I can and have with a SIRT many times. I know this. Again, it was why they weren't allowed at USPSA matches as they seem part of the ecology of handgun usage. Scoring debates was the reason I saw. Is there another?

    Matches are not practice, I know that - nor are they training. That's why I have trained with Givens, Rehn, Spaulding, Ayoob, Insights, gone to the NTI, others, and Tom's conference. It's a shame I can't go anymore as I need to stay close to home for family reasons of health.

    About shooting from retention - I shot IDPA for about 15 of so years, two to three times a week - nobody gone got shot from retention with match attendance of 50 to 60 shooters. Didn't see anyone get shot in a class from retention. You might as well argue that AIWB is esoteric and dangerous and yet folks do it. Look at this one: https://blog.krtraining.com/lessons-...tal-discharge/

    If the student was using an IWB or AIWB holster, it’s more likely an injury would have resulted (NOT a knock on AIWB/IWB holsters, as I use both – just an observation). If you do use an AIWB holster, be extra diligent to check for possible obstructions, holster slowly, and push your hips forward before and while you are holstering so that you are not at risk to put a bullet through your femoral artery if the unthinkable happens.
    So why do folks do that? Like I said, I would like to see empirical evidence that match retention accidents are common. The NDs I saw, including one that almost hit my foot, were finger on the trigger.

    One handed shooting and off handed shooting - why that? Well, one could argue that it is for being injured (or is it a fun game point?). I know one should be able to do this as when I broke my dominant wrist, I was signed up for an Advanced Tactical class with Rehn and did it one handed. Paul Gomez was in the class, BTW. I also did Mas' LFI Stressfire, with one hand, nondominate - Wayne Dobbs was helping, don't know if he remember me. Or when we ran save the baby at Givens'. Got on the cover of a Given's newsletter way back when. Marty Hayes took the picture

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    About finding ranges to practice such - they are nonexistant here and most commercial ranges frown on the more rapid fire, draw from holster practices. The club here does a practice session but it is usually just practicing a stage for the real match.

    I get it that it a game. I was curious to the reason as it seemed a fun thing to do in a game as an official configuration as compared to making up a pseudo-one. I know it is not 'training'.

    Am I not clear now?

    So to repeat myself -I was just wondering why? Again thanks for the discussion.
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  2. #12
    King of Craft Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    A Mozambique question

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    Will it get you killed in the street?

    1. It seems to me that practicing failure to stop drills is a good thing. At tactical classes and events like the NTi, we shot failure to stop targets that wouldn't drop unless you performed a good Mozambique sequence.

    2. Where can I practice such? Most indoor ranges frown at fast, draw and multiple shots. One in TX would if you were checked out.

    3. Matches seem a place to practice such under some movement and time stress.

    4. Does a particular game allow you to practice a useful technique? Shooting from retention, Mozambiques, strong hand weak hand, standing on your head?

    5. It seems that if USPSA want to have a menu of useful practice targets, it might do such. Yes, at my match, they did have some staggered targets as shown but why do that instead of just a straight forward one - except as Enos's forum said - range lawyer disputes over scoring? Solving your problem as 'freedom' - that's nice. There are rule constraints, so you are not totally free.

    Just asking and not wanting the grand USPA/IDPA battle to start. I'm happy to shoot the staggered ones.
    Don’t worry so much about drills and scenarios. When you get good at USPSA, you will have subconscious mastery of any type of shot combination. Shoot large open target, transition to small high risk target? Shoot activator, open target, partial swinger? None of this is a big deal, and the Mozambique isn’t different in any meaningful way. You’ll have seen it all in so many ways that you don’t have to think about it.

    What might get you killed in the streets is not also continuing to train defensive tactics as well.
    "BJJ is sort of like nonconsensual yoga"
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    Forget it folks, I was simply asking why it wasn't part of matches as the technique seems part of what folks might encounter, esp. given Tom Givens' post.

    So, the mention of drop targets was not to have them in USPSA but to mention in that in training events (of which I've done many), we used reactive targets, some that needed the head shot to drop. John Hearne (a member here, specializes in such targets). The idea was that Mozambiques are found elsewhere - IDPA and training, so why not UPSA?

    I thank folks for the practice suggestions - I am well aware of such. Dry fire for a Mozambique can't really be accomplished with a 1911 or Glock. Yes, I can and have with a SIRT many times. I know this. Again, it was why they weren't allowed at USPSA matches as they seem part of the ecology of handgun usage. Scoring debates was the reason I saw. Is there another?

    Matches are not practice, I know that - nor are they training. That's why I have trained with Givens, Rehn, Spaulding, Ayoob, Insights, gone to the NTI, others, and Tom's conference. It's a shame I can't go anymore as I need to stay close to home for family reasons of health.

    About shooting from retention - I shot IDPA for about 15 of so years, two to three times a week - nobody gone got shot from retention with match attendance of 50 to 60 shooters. Didn't see anyone get shot in a class from retention. You might as well argue that AIWB is esoteric and dangerous and yet folks do it. Look at this one: https://blog.krtraining.com/lessons-...tal-discharge/



    So why do folks do that? Like I said, I would like to see empirical evidence that match retention accidents are common. The NDs I saw, including one that almost hit my foot, were finger on the trigger.

    One handed shooting and off handed shooting - why that? Well, one could argue that it is for being injured (or is it a fun game point?). I know one should be able to do this as when I broke my dominant wrist, I was signed up for an Advanced Tactical class with Rehn and did it one handed. Paul Gomez was in the class, BTW. I also did Mas' LFI Stressfire, with one hand, nondominate - Wayne Dobbs was helping, don't know if he remember me. Or when we ran save the baby at Givens'. Got on the cover of a Given's newsletter way back when. Marty Hayes took the picture

    Name:  Baby.jpg
Views: 125
Size:  59.4 KB

    About finding ranges to practice such - they are nonexistant here and most commercial ranges frown on the more rapid fire, draw from holster practices. The club here does a practice session but it is usually just practicing a stage for the real match.

    I get it that it a game. I was curious to the reason as it seemed a fun thing to do in a game as an official configuration as compared to making up a pseudo-one. I know it is not 'training'.

    Am I not clear now?

    So to repeat myself -I was just wondering why? Again thanks for the discussion.
    I think I understand better what your question is now. I think the main additional answer is that most people don't care one way or the other what order you shoot or number of rounds you shoot at a target in USPSA. The typical shooter just wants to have nice gear and hang out with their buddies. The ones who want to improve at USPSA are chasing improved USPSA performance, the Mozambique has no real significance to them in the context of the game. The few tactical guys I've seen at matches generally just accept that the rules are what they are and embrace the artificiality of the game. I shot a match with a Limited GM who's an AFSOC officer, and he competes with a $5000 2011 and plays the game the same way as any other USPSA shooter.

  4. #14
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    BTW, for a laugh - I showed the picture to the training head of our local university department (I was a terrorist for them) and he said it showed great form. My art major daughter was appreciative of the composition as it implied force and movement. Haha. My research kids used to use that as our group's logo when they did presentations. I suppose today I would be fired for that as not being PC.

    IIRC, one well known someone got in trouble as his solution to save the baby was to toss it like a football behind the truck from a distance. That's so he could get a two handed grip. GAMER!

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    BTW, for a laugh - I showed the picture to the training head of our local university department (I was a terrorist for them) and he said it showed great form. My art major daughter was appreciative of the composition as it implied force and movement. Haha. My research kids used to use that as our group's logo when they did presentations. I suppose today I would be fired for that as not being PC.

    IIRC, one well known someone got in trouble as his solution to save the baby was to toss it like a football behind the truck from a distance. That's so he could get a two handed grip. GAMER!
    The other question for you is why Mozambique if you have a good and confident head shot?
    Like @Clusterfrack said, gaming helps you know your target and your ability / limitations.

    If someone is advancing at me and I can place a headshot easily and quickly, why would I start with the body?

    I had to attend a holster class and one of the last drills the instructor did was “running man” where he physically advanced the target at you and you had to put 5 rounds on before it got to you.

    I was confident enough that I put 5 rounds on the face left handed. Why would I bother with body and transition if I could just stop the threat earlier if the target was available.

    Get an Airsoft gun and practice in your basement.
    But you can absolutely practice it with a Glock in dry fire.

    Either with a commercial reset trigger or by “calling your shots.” If you have a good trigger press, then your shot will go where your sights are at. Whether or not you actually press the trigger.

    I own land and have a steel triple dropper target... I almost never use it because it doesn’t really add much to my shot calling and shooting.

  6. #16
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    The standard dogma is that you shoot for COM as it is easiest to hit, given the area. The head shot is for a failure to stop. If you disagree with that, it is your privilege. It is more of an OH, SHIT response.

    Yes, I can practice without a trigger pull, but I prefer to have one, again YMMV. That's why I SIRTainly practice.

    The other day, I happily SW 642'ed for a bit, after checking the gun quite a few times to avoid a bad thing. My wife killing me for a hole in the new house (that's a joke). I could have used my blue gun 642 and imagined it.

    As far as not getting anything from drop targets, well, that's your call. My evil trainers made me do it. They can be bad mojo. Karly had a SWAT guy as a guest instructor with some drop targets. So I hit mine and folks say - hey, your beard is turning read. A fragment from the steel cut open my chin! Oy!

    A debate over shaving the beard and getting excited - but direct pressure for a bit did it. Lesson, don't have a beard and take head shots - I suppose.

    If I could I would take: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ehall-AR-07-31

    John does a great job with his targets.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    Forget it folks, I was simply asking why it wasn't part of matches . . .
    So to repeat myself -I was just wondering why? Again thanks for the discussion.

    There is much about the shooting world I find inexplicable: range rules, gun lore, practice session, so many questions about what people do and what they believe . . .
    "To achieve any significant technological breakthrough, much Derp must be endured." -Rich@CCC
    "Your shotgun is running a bit frenetic, you should add some lavender to your lubricant, that should calm it down." -Aray, Oils and Lotions SME


  8. #18
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    Yeah, IDPA has its share of stupid. What I'm really going to miss here is carbine matches. I think there is three gun around somewhere. Have to look into it. It would be weird with 10 round mags and the compliant rifles.

    I haven't dry fired around the basement with the Mini-14 - I guess I should.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    The other question for you is why Mozambique if you have a good and confident head shot?
    .
    That would be a good and relatively novel question in the software section.
    Ignore Alien Orders

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    The standard dogma is that you shoot for COM as it is easiest to hit, given the area. The head shot is for a failure to stop. If you disagree with that, it is your privilege. It is more of an OH, SHIT response.

    Yes, I can practice without a trigger pull, but I prefer to have one, again YMMV. That's why I SIRTainly practice.

    The other day, I happily SW 642'ed for a bit, after checking the gun quite a few times to avoid a bad thing. My wife killing me for a hole in the new house (that's a joke). I could have used my blue gun 642 and imagined it.

    As far as not getting anything from drop targets, well, that's your call. My evil trainers made me do it. They can be bad mojo. Karly had a SWAT guy as a guest instructor with some drop targets. So I hit mine and folks say - hey, your beard is turning read. A fragment from the steel cut open my chin! Oy!

    A debate over shaving the beard and getting excited - but direct pressure for a bit did it. Lesson, don't have a beard and take head shots - I suppose.

    If I could I would take: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ehall-AR-07-31

    John does a great job with his targets.
    Yes. A lot of YMMV.

    That latest video Tom posted about the Sheriff backing up at arms length while being struck by the stick and having to put 12 rounds into the body... at that distance, you’d have to be a pretty poor marksman to not be able to hit head.

    The Sheriff was lucky the guy didn’t have a blade or edged weapon, but the dogma should be:

    Train so that you are skilled enough to confidently take the best and most effective shot in the quickest time.

    I don’t get much from a drop target because it doesn’t drop quickly enough and it only drops on one axis.

    I prefer things like this:



    In real life on close steel I use frangible rounds only.

    I’m fairly fast and comfortable in my accuracy. Three rounds from concealment onto a small square in under a second.



    If I have more time I can do that on a head no problem.

    USPSA taught me to call shots so I know where the rounds are going.

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