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Thread: Maryland Shooting

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    I’m still wondering what led to this psychotic break.
    I would guess meth.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex G View Post
    Well, not to MMQB, but, yes, it did appear that the deputy continued to fixate on firing at general center-of-mass, and retreating, when neither were probably best responses, by that moment in time.

    I hate to see a straight-line retrograde retreat, but, unfortunately, that is what is often instructed, and, well, we tend to default to our training.

    Edited to add: The deputy may have been trying to get to the door of his patrol vehicle, to prevent the actor from getting there, first.

    None of these comments cover the Kyle Dinkeller incident. I would want to review that, before commenting further.

    I have no idea what kind of training that department does or does not do. My comments are general and more times than not are applicable.

    The fixation on center mass is likely because his department has not drilled their people in failure drills to the point that it becomes reflexive. Where are 95+ percent of their practice and qual shots aimed? Most likely center mass? If you don't practice it you won't do it...especially under stress. If you do practice it you are more likely to do it. And when I say practice it I don't just mean on paper. I mean in FOF against an actual person. If you practice it on paper you validate that you can deliver the shots to the head with live fire from your actual firearm. Then you burn it into your consciousness and make it reflexive by doing it with sims or airsoft against live opponents so that it becomes far more likely that you will do it under stress.

    The retrograde retreat may also be a flat range training scar. Again the importance of doing work in a 360 degree environment and not just shooting paper with hips squared up to the berm cannot be over emphasized. The world is a 360 degree hot range. Might be a good idea to have your people train in a manner that they don't just back straight up. That can be done with Sims or airsoft or even with blue guns but it helps train your brain to be OK with moving laterally and elliptically.
    Last edited by Randy Harris; 02-12-2021 at 03:38 PM.

  3. #53
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Fighting people with sticks can be tricky. Moving back put the LEO right on the X. Understandable but not the right answer. Does typical FoF DT training include getting attacked by sticks, clubs, or bats?

    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  4. #54
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Fighting people with sticks can be tricky. Moving back put the LEO right on the X. Understandable but not the right answer. Does typical FoF DT training include getting attacked by sticks, clubs, or bats?

    You are assuming that FoF training is “typical,” in US LE? I doubt that this deputy has had much, if any FoF training. (I would have seen that exaggerated overhead strike as being a gift from The Lord, even if my only weapon would have been the old-school 26” hardwood baton, but, oh, well.)

    I had precious little FoF after my time as a cadet, in the academy. I had precious little SIM training, after SIMs became a thing, though the department was just starting to get better, by the time I left, in very early 2018.

    I enrolled twice, in ECQC, 2005 and 2006, though I missed most or all of day one of the second one, due to a family emergency, so, just did 1.5 ECQCs. I also have to credit two seminars I attended, taught my Steve Tarani. A colleague, Paul H, who also attended the Tarani seminars, and at least the first of those ECQCs, would help me very much, in the PD gym, as his messed-up back allowed. The footwork was especially important, drilling into my brain that street fights are a battle of maneuver, and that one NEVER moves in straight lines, unless there is just no other way. (Paul H’s background was largely in Small Circle Ju-Jitsu.)
    Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.

    Don’t tread on volcanos!

  5. #55
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    Fighting people with sticks can be tricky. Moving back put the LEO right on the X. Understandable but not the right answer. Does typical FoF DT training include getting attacked by sticks, clubs, or bats?
    I've been whacked with foam bats and picked up canes to whack realistic 3D dummy targets when you had to improvise what was available. Also, whacked one with a Surefire - was critiqued as I didn't pick up the available tennis racket to whack the dummy. Functional fixedness is the term for that. The flashlight was carried as a secondary impact weapon and in the 'surprise' dummy encounter, I did not scan for something else.

    The point about making failure to stop drills instinctive is interesting given how I was critiqued for my mild question about such in USPSA as someone claimed that being a good gamer would transfer into a different shooting technique under pressure, even without practicing it. Believers please stand down - it's a game I know. However, from my lane, I do understand that learning has general and very specific motor transfers and the general is good but you need to do the specifics.

  6. #56
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    While my former agency has trained with the county police at in-service training for some years, we did not do firearms training with them. (I suspect primarily because our command staff did not want to undergo the humiliation of driving to the outdoor range or the academy to go through the Q course with the county.) That said, we did do in-service training with them for the past some years. While I suspect MCSO probably has some sheriff-specific IST, their deputies attended county in-service. I don't know if MCSO attends county police firearms training or not.

    I don't recall anything that involved diagonal movement to avoid an oncoming assault. In recent years, the DT portion of IST generally dealt with ground fighting. I will note that backing away from an oncoming threat is fairly intuitive while moving at a diagonal, especially forward which is likely optimal, is probably a difficult skill to imprint.

  7. #57
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Maryland Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd View Post
    ...backing away from an oncoming threat is fairly intuitive while moving at a diagonal, especially forward which is likely optimal, is probably a difficult skill to imprint.
    Totally agree.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    In the Twitter video, at about 10 and 18 seconds, the suspect appears to be motioning/pointing to his 160th SOAR shirt. He also broke a large stick on the deputy, clearly assault.
    I've had suspects I took at gunpoint point at their chest and yell shoot me etc over and over, so it may not have had anything to do with the 160th emblem. Hard to tell without hearing what the suspect was saying.

    Talk about a "Night Of The Walking Dead Nightmare".
    Be Aware-Stay Safe. Gunfighting Is A Thinking Man's Game. So We Might Want To Bring Thinking Back Into It.

  9. #59
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Fighting people with sticks can be tricky. Moving back put the LEO right on the X. Understandable but not the right answer. Does typical FoF DT training include getting attacked by sticks, clubs, or bats?
    In a lot of police training, "create space" is drilled into people, especially so with agencies that are teaching to the bare minimum state mandate due to budgetary issues, and especially among agencies that aren't habitually fighting people into cuffs (note: I know nothing about this agency in particular on either point).

    So, you get things like this.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  10. #60
    Member jd950's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jd950 View Post
    Perhaps I am seeing it incorrectly, but watching the relevant bits frame-by-frame, it appeared that several small holes began to appear right in the round bullseye-shaped circle on the chest during the incident. Not that it would be some particular feat of marksmanship at that range, but I gather several rounds went where one would try to place them.

    Assailant went down in a "reasonable" amount of time, it is just the proximity and slow walk that made this seem so different. Curious about the interaction in the seconds leading up to this.

    Removing the audio, this could be an interesting teaching moment for all the "why did you have to shoot him" why did you not taser him" "all he had was a knife/stick/bat/hammer" crowd. With the audio, it could be an interesting teaching moment for other things.

    I predict the internet is about to be deluged with "Shoot his ass!" GIFS and memes.

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