What Makes a Gun Company’s Reputation. How Do they Rank

[SCCY Marshal]

Sample of one, of course, but my father in law's Hi-Point 9mm handgun couldn't consistently get through a magazine without a jam the one time I saw it in use at the range.

The only thing less reliable than their 9mm is the .380 as it uses the same magazines. Same core problem plus being called good enough for a rather different cartridge. The 9mm carbine uses a different magazine than the pistol and the .380 carbine uses yet another magazine where the .40 and .45 carbines use the same mags as the pistols.

Big numbers, the carbines of any caliber run the best. By Hi-Point's own admission, the .45 carbine is the least accurate. If I had to have one of their pistols and it had to be reliable rather than an inexpensive range novelty, I'd opt for one in a caliber starting with 4.

[Joe in PNG]

So at this point innovation should be coming from where we are seeing it, sights, accessories, etc.

Operating mechanisms designed around optical sights is one potential area. The Laugo Alien, for instance, allows the RDS to be fixed. But, gas delayed blowback isn't a cheap thing to make and has heating issues. Hopefully they will have the time to develop something affordable over time.

[spyderco monkey]

so if "innovation" really was the name of the game, what would people be buying instead?

FN Five seveN, Walther P99, Laguo Alien, FK BRNO, Sphinx SDP.

[HCM]

What is "innovation" in the context of handguns?

To my mind the most recent innovations on the market come from accessories, not the guns themselves. Polymer frames and interchangeable backstraps/panels are basically the "innovations" of the last 40 years.

Some might argue pistol mounted optics, but the rise of factory available mounting systems is merely a response to consumer demand, not an innovation. Similarly the inclusion of 1913 rails on guns is a response to consumer demand, not innovation.

And I guess my thought is, if "innovation" where the name of the game there wouldn't be as many 1911s, Berettas, and Glocks sold. Because let's look around, no one is still, willingly, using an Intel 386 from 1988, but Blues is still rolling with his Glock from that year. A Glock that isn't fundamentally different from one produced in 2018 and is unlikely to be different fundamentally from one produced in 2028 either.

So to my mind innovation doesn't mean a lot with regards to handgun design. In fact, I think "innovation" is not ideal. Iterative refinement of a well designed system is generally better overall. When you start from nothing, yea innovation is great. But when you've got an extremely mature technology (which reciprocating-action, self-contained cartridge firing, handguns are); innovation doesn't mean a lot.

Just my thoughts.

The P250/320/Styer M9 /APX type modular frames is innovative. It let you change more than just the size of the grip.

The Alien pistol has an innovative approach to engineering a non reciprocating optic on a service pistol without the bulk of an external mount.

[spyderco monkey]

Yeah, that's my understanding, and the basic trouble with the brand - Umarex markets some lower-quality items under the Walther name, which somewhat taints that name.

Walther bankrupted themselves making at the time the worlds highest end production combat pistol - the Walther P88. 15rd, great DA/SA, 1.5" @ 25yd accuracy.

When this masterpiece flopped, they ended up being bought by a BB Gun company - Umarex - who releases mediocre pistols under the Walther brand.

So ironically, Walthers pursuit of the ultimate in high quality handguns is why they now have this reputation for mediocre handguns.

[snow white]

I very much like kel-tek as a company. The attitude of "we are gonna make what we think is cool and fuck you if you dont like it" is pretty awesome. At least thats my impression of them. They have some duds and QC can be less than perfect at times but when they hit it right they make some very cool guns. They seem very open to trying oddball stuff and I admire that.

[DDTSGM]

And if I'm honest the reason for that is primarily is the ammunition. As long as we use a controlled "explosion" to propel a projectile, we're basically just building bomb containment devices. Since our ammunition is extremely efficient overall I'm not sure there is a real need to change.

Wait until they put a carbon tax on ammo.

[spyderco monkey]

And I guess my thought is, if "innovation" where the name of the game there wouldn't be as many 1911s, Berettas, and Glocks sold. Because let's look around, no one is still, willingly, using an Intel 386 from 1988, but Blues is still rolling with his Glock from that year. A Glock that isn't fundamentally different from one produced in 2018 and is unlikely to be different fundamentally from one produced in 2028 either.

Thats kinda the problem in my book.

The Timberwolf frame offered a genuine innovation that Glock could have employed to great success - grip angle changing backstraps. One pistol, with either a Glock, 1911, or CZ grip angle, to best suit the shooters natural point of aim.

This was released at the time of the Gen 3 Glock. To which Glock gave us...stack on backstraps to simply make the Glock grip hump increasingly pronounced.

Now even Polymer 80's have more refined ergonomics then the factory Glock.

FN released the first optic cut production pistol - the FNX 45 Tactical - in 2012. Glock didn't release the MOS until 2016.

SIG released the P365 before the Glock 43x/48, showing that metal magazines can provide high capacity slimline pistols (arguably the Keltec P11 showed this decades earlier.) Glock releases the 43x/48 with 10rd polymer mags...leaving the 15rd metal magazines to be developed by a small company after internet nerds figure out that CZ75 mags fit easily into the g48 magwell.

This is...frustrating.

[olstyn]

Does Umarex on Walther or are they both owned by a third-party?

I believe that somewhere along the way, Umarex purchased Walther.

[Clusterfrack]

Thats kinda the problem in my book.

The Timberwolf frame offered a genuine innovation that Glock could have employed to great success - grip angle changing backstraps. One pistol, with either a Glock, 1911, or CZ grip angle, to best suit the shooters natural point of aim.

This was released at the time of the Gen 3 Glock. To which Glock gave us...stack on backstraps to simply make the Glock grip hump increasingly pronounced.

Now even Polymer 80's have more refined ergonomics then the factory Glock.

FN released the first optic cut production pistol - the FNX 45 Tactical - in 2012. Glock didn't release the MOS until 2016.

SIG released the P365 before the Glock 43x/48, showing that metal magazines can provide high capacity slimline pistols (arguably the Keltec P11 showed this decades earlier.) Glock releases the 43x/48 with 10rd polymer mags...leaving the 15rd metal magazines to be developed by a small company after internet nerds figure out that CZ75 mags fit easily into the g48 magwell.

This is...frustrating.

Good points. However I don’t find this frustrating. I want fewer new models, parts, and mags from Glock. Just continue to refine the current design. Standardization is one of Glock’s main strengths.