Selecting Dot(s) for EDC *and* USPSA

[SoCalDep]

I should have clarified - my rant wasn’t meant to be towards you... your 10 yard statement just inspired me.

That said, I think the dot is an advantage for more than just “shooting”. The ability to maintain a single focal plane is a big deal even within 10 yards and I think that’s huge even for the average shooter. At the same time, I think the practical side of dot use (vs competition which has a more established history) is still new enough that we don’t have the answers yet as to what’s easier for a brand-new shooter/gun carrier to learn to do in a fight.

Most instructors are getting motivated and at least somewhat experienced students (with some exceptions) and like you mentioned, dedicated dot users for defense (ccw and law enforcement or military) are very much still in the minority.

Makes for fun times.

[GJM]

Dots may not be an advantage at 10 yards in vs iron sights.

I think a fairer statement might be that dots are not an advantage at distances where you can use gross aiming from just pointing the slide. Where you need to align sights, isn’t a single point aiming system faster, especially for those with imperfect and mature vision?

It is interesting how things change — my recollection is a few years back, Mike P didn’t allow use of a red dot on his pistol test because he thought it was gamey and not practical?

[ranger]

I was shooting Aimpoints for several years on Open pistols in competition before the Army began issuing optics on ARs (M16-M4). I remember when the first batch of Aimpoints showed up for my Infantry BN and I had to teach the first classes to my NCOs on what the optic was and how it was mounted, zero'd, etc. For years, we had the Aimpoints but Soldiers were not allowed to shoot them in annual qualification so as to not lose the iron sight skills. Kind of like using map and compass with GPS tech available.

One day iron sight pistols will be cool and sell at an inflated price - kind of like revolvers now.

[Archer1440]

Personally I have observed a situation where some of my associates who adopted (small) red dots on their (small) carry pistols but who have not put much effort into improving their skills are arguably impaired by the presence of the dot. One in particular has taken to carrying a P365XL with the SIG plastic dot, and is at least a full second slower in engaging from the holster on the very rare occasions he actually practices with the silly thing.

He would literally be better off with just irons at his present skill level. And with the current ammo situation, he’s well equipped with excuses for not working on it- not that he worked much at it when ammo was cheap.

That’s uncomfortably common, in my personal experience. It’s hard to fix stubborn.

The dot can be a great tool, but it comes with a number of requirements with respect to time and effort over and above ordinary proficiency, and good instruction can definitely shorten the path to working on the “right things”.

[Magsz]

Personally I have observed a situation where some of my associates who adopted (small) red dots on their (small) carry pistols but who have not put much effort into improving their skills are arguably impaired by the presence of the dot. One in particular has taken to carrying a P365XL with the SIG plastic dot, and is at least a full second slower in engaging from the holster on the very rare occasions he actually practices with the silly thing.

He would literally be better off with just irons at his present skill level. And with the current ammo situation, he’s well equipped with excuses for not working on it- not that he worked much at it when ammo was cheap.

That’s uncomfortably common, in my personal experience. It’s hard to fix stubborn.

The dot can be a great tool, but it comes with a number of requirements with respect to time and effort over and above ordinary proficiency, and good instruction can definitely shorten the path to working on the “right things”.

That's not a dot problem. That's a your buddy is letting his ego drive his car.

He would equally suck with Iron sights. What standard are you using to measure the "full second slower" comment? Just because you find the sight, doesn't mean that the hit is going to be where it needs to be. The same can be said for the red dot and I find this to be an equal detriment in terms of speed.

With my students, yes, it appears as though they find the irons faster as their shot breaks sooner and you're not witnessing the same circle eight pattern of movement as they attempt to find the dot but the reality is, the results on the target are equally bad. A bad sight picture with a bad hit is no better than no sight picture with a dot. When you have a student that actively listens and is attempting to understand concepts, watching a red dot track is incredibly informative to them. Most people see a dot dip during a flinch far easier than they do irons since Irons are often lost in the recoil cycle with new shooters.

When I first mounted a dot on a gun back in 2011, it was a T1 in a Unity Atom Slide (I think it was 2011). I let my ego drive and spent a long time harping on why the concept was crap. To a certain extent, I maintain that in 2011, the concept was crap as people were having all kinds of issues with dots on guns. I maintained that it was not for prime time and that we had a long way to go before this was ready for the mainstream, much to the disagreement of other people. I didn't discount it completely but I really did believe that people were putting way too much confidence in it at the time. There is a post somewhere on this forum where I absolutely trash the concept, or maybe its on another forum, I cant really recall.

Fast forward to 2021 and I find a hard time justifying any downsides to dots besides inclement weather and the remote chance of dot failure. I cannot find a single instance in my performance where there is any detriment, period. All this talk about how the "gross" nature of iron sights allows you to be faster up close makes zero sense to me considering in the competition world, the majority of users are using an index based firing solution out to whatever distance their skill set allows. With a threat based focus with irons, the issue is moot when speaking transitionally to a red dot. The red dot is using the same threat based focus as that iron sight technique and you're STILL just indexing. Either your skill set is there or its not.

Good discussion guys, I appreciate the shared experiences.

[Clusterfrack]

I think a fairer statement might be that dots are not an advantage at distances where you can use gross aiming from just pointing the slide. Where you need to align sights, isn’t a single point aiming system faster, especially for those with imperfect and mature vision?

All else equal, I agree. However, is the dot advantage significant? Does it outweigh its disadvantages? Of course that depends on the individual. Each of us hopefully makes an objective decision about defensive firearms based on costs and benefits. Currently I am satisfied with iron sights on my carry guns. Two people I know well, and respect highly, carry guns with RDS, and I agree with their decision to do so.

[GJM]

All else equal, I agree. However, is the dot advantage significant? Does it outweigh its disadvantages? Of course that depends on the individual. Each of us hopefully makes an objective decision about defensive firearms based on costs and benefits. Currently I am satisfied with iron sights on my carry guns. Two people I know well, and respect highly, carry guns with RDS, and I agree with their decision to do so.

For high volume shooters, I think it depends on what you main gun is. If my game gun was iron sights, I would carry irons, and vice versa. Since I shoot and or dry fire with a dot every day, iron sights on the pistol is practically an abnormal situation for me, so I gladly carry a dot even with the drawbacks associated with a dot. Pick your poison.

[Clusterfrack]

For high volume shooters, I think it depends on what you main gun is. If my game gun was iron sights, I would carry irons, and vice versa. Since I shoot and or dry fire with a dot every day, iron sights on the pistol is practically an abnormal situation for me, so I gladly carry a dot even with the drawbacks associated with a dot. Pick your poison.

Well said. This makes sense. A few more things go into my equation in addition to what I compete and primarily practice with. Some guns don't easily lend themselves to RDS. E.g. I carried an LCR on our neighborhood hike just now. An RDS and/or a WML add size and weight, and I am not a huge dude. I can feel the difference between my P-07s with and without the TLR-8, and more often carry the one without it because of that. I'd rather carry a G19 or P-07 size gun with no accessories than a p365 or G43 size gun with a RDS.

Plus I'm a stubborn fucker--not an early adopter.

[Magsz]

Well said. This makes sense. A few more things go into my equation in addition to what I compete and primarily practice with. Some guns don't easily lend themselves to RDS. E.g. I carried an LCR on our neighborhood hike just now. An RDS and/or a WML add size and weight, and I am not a huge dude. I can feel the difference between my P-07s with and without the TLR-8, and more often carry the one without it because of that. I'd rather carry a G19 or P-07 size gun with no accessories than a p365 or G43 size gun with a RDS.

Plus I'm a stubborn fucker--not an early adopter.

I carry an iron sighted pistol on duty.

I only train on my own time with dot guns. I have had zero practical loss of performance going back to my iron sighted guns. I'm holding out hope that my Agency will be moving towards dots within the next two years.

At this juncture, I can definitely see how stubborn you are. You're not even close to being an early adopter lol. You're about ten to twelve years behind the curve. :P

[Clusterfrack]

I got this in 2014, and carried it for a year.