Selecting Dot(s) for EDC *and* USPSA

[Nephrology]

I would but I’m not sure a struggling intern could afford the battery bill?

There must be grants for this purpose, I am certain

[GJM]

There must be grants for this purpose, I am certain

Read the fine print, the grants only cover 2032 batteries.

[RJ]

@LOKNLOD Ref your other thread on Glock MOS optics’s etc, I’m getting great advice here for my G34 MOS.

[Nephrology]

Read the fine print, the grants only cover 2032 batteries.

Well hey Aimpoint might have a pistol optic that takes 2032s by the time I graduate!

[David S.]

The other area where RDS specific classes shine is preparing the student for worst possible outcomes. Dot failure, water on the lens, mud on the lens etc. I've been shooting for a while and i've never really seen instructors teaching a "your iron sights have mud on them, what do you do!" kind of lesson block. Sure, instinctive, point shooting, indexing off of the slide shooting is a technique that is and has been taught but i've never seen real emphasis on this versus all of the potential shit that CAN go wrong with a red dot.

In my RDS specific training experience, managing dot failure, obstructed windows, one handed shooting and off-axis shooting were touched on very briefly. It was a box to check, then right back to the "good stuff." I'd be surprised if we spent 150 rounds between the three classes working on all of it.

YMMV, and all that.

I'm not intended as a dig on the instructors as I'd enthusiastically train with them again.

[Magsz]

In my RDS specific training experience, managing dot failure, obstructed windows, one handed shooting and off-axis shooting were touched on very briefly. It was a box to check, then right back to the "good stuff." I'd be surprised if we spent 150 rounds between the three classes working on all of it.

YMMV, and all that.

I'm not intended as a dig on the instructors as I'd enthusiastically train with them again.

Interesting. My experience with Centrifuge training differs. Granted, it was a specific RDS instructors class so that may have something to do with it.

[GJM]

In my RDS specific training experience, managing dot failure, obstructed windows, one handed shooting and off-axis shooting were touched on very briefly.

Sounds like a regular club USPSA match.

[ranger]

Tom Givens new 20 shot drill touches on a lot of opportunities to practice the basics. Buddy and I ran that drill multiple times recently - I ran it with my M&P 5 inch with SRO then with my SA 1911 Operator. Gave instant comparison of dot vs iron sites and light striker pistol vs big heavy 1911. Dots may not be an advantage at 10 yards in vs iron sights.

[SoCalDep]

Dots may not be an advantage at 10 yards in vs iron sights.

Since we’re here, let’s discuss.

Our first requirement is to define the “advantage”. Are we talking about speed? Accuracy?, both and if so how much of each? Are we talking about target shooting or personal defense/law enforcement/military use? Do we need to see and identify threats, manage people who may change position and/or behavior? Are we working in a single controlled and consistent lighting and positional environment or is it dark or changing lighting - with us and others moving?

How much training and practice have we had with each technique (dot v irons), and what technique have we been using most recently? It’s quite common for someone to shoot irons for decades, try a dot for an hour and declare it “slower”.

Lastly... if we’re talking about shooting targets and not dealing with people, I’m confused as to why, if dot’s aren’t an advantage within 10 yards, USPSA and Steel Challenge have an open division with all those close targets and why IDPA had to reduce the classifier times for the 5x5 with optics since it’s shot at 10 yards.

I will admit though, despite my foot-stomping diatribe above, that I was talking with Mike Pannone recently and he made a great point, which I will paraphrase and probably butcher. Iron sights allow us to be more sloppy in the presentation. I agree and for newer dot shooters who haven’t developed consistency in presentation it does give a speed advantage up close. That’s not a drawback of the dot but evidence of the learning curve.

But according to experts we don’t need dot specific training so I guess we all just know this... or something.

[ranger]

Did not mean to upset anyone. I have been shooting red dots on pistols since mid 1980s when I was active USPSA/IPSC and Outlaw Steel Shooter. I remember when Barnhart won with a dot and the stampede started. I am a hobbyist shooter, retired military pistol toter (1911-M9), and CCW. I am not a professional shooter, instructor, etc. I took a break from Open guns and dots and moved to Production style pistols during the GWOT.

For general range use, competition, and applications by trained civilians, LE, and Military - dots rule.

I will say it and take the beating - your average shooter and specifically CCW users PROBABLY will not benefit from RDS at typical engagement ranges (say 10 yards in) unless they have vision issues. I am not sure if putting RDS on a small CCW pistol is a great return on investment.

I remember well the angst and arguments during the early days of USPSA reference the move to optics and specifically whether dots slowed you down on close engagements vs the value at longer engagements. Dots quickly won in the hands of practicioners who put a lot of rounds down range.

This is PF, the members either put a lot of rounds down range or act like they do - that is a small portion of the market.