Selecting Dot(s) for EDC *and* USPSA

[NoTacTravis]

As someone who is similarly thinking of making the move from a G19 to a G34 carry optics train/compete and G48 RDS carry solution I am following this thread with interest.

Read the thread twice, I didn't see mention of MOA size? It seems I've been hearing more podcasters talk about moving from the 6 MOA dot to a 3 MOA dot and just shooting the streak, then cranking up to the brightness to appear bigger if needed. Is that the sense here as well or is the rabbit hole leading me too far from the beaten path?



Time to start price checking SRO's I guess...
*edit* $499 all over the place. Gulp. Ummm.... maybe not for this poor.

[GJM]

The “price of admission” to shooting a dot is reliably acquiring the dot. Intermediate is understanding the dot doesn’t need to stop, just stay within the scoring area. Advanced is actually shooting looking at the target and not the dot.

[JCN]

I'll offer the dubious perspective that an RDS specific class it not needed; I say dubious, because I have never taken a dot-specific pistol class, but I've never read any AARs or talked to anyone that said anything taught in a dot specific class that gave me a lightbulb moment. Instead, I'd argue that RDS on pistols are very much just another sighting system, and the basics remain exactly the same; there might be a few nuances here and there, but those are like 15 minutes worth of material at best, not a two day specific course, and nothing that would make a massive difference in performance. One of the first folks to offer RDS pistol classes, Steve Fisher, has stated more than once that he continues to put on such classes simply because there is a demand, and he needs to make a living, and that he personally also thinks that RDS specific pistol classes are dumb.

Similarly, someone made a post about this in a Facebook group:

IMO, the most important part of the transition to the RDS is simply finding the dot on the draw, and that is nothing more than having a consistent draw. Not easy, but certainly simple, and can be practiced dry, and does not change when going from iron sights to RDS.

I’m also a self-taught through practice dot shooter.
But “consistent draw” isn’t quite correct and it might change from irons to RDS.
if someone has a consistent but rising drawstroke with irons, they can be very fast and accurate tracking the irons as they come up and on target.

But with a dot, you want to pick it up as early as you can on the draw so it may become a little more of a horizontal press out towards the last 1/3 of the stroke as opposed to a very functional iron draw that comes up later.

I recently worked with a friend who is an accomplished iron shooter but never got on with dots. He had bought and sold many dot guns after dabbling with them. I mailed him a dot slide and gave him a series of exercises with par times for dry and live fire. It worked great for him.

So sometimes even talking about the different types of dot sight pictures (streak, bounce or hover) can help a shooter cut off frustration and lead in time.

As someone who is similarly thinking of making the move from a G19 to a G34 carry optics train/compete and G48 RDS carry solution I am following this thread with interest.

Read the thread twice, I didn't see mention of MOA size? It seems I've been hearing more podcasters talk about moving from the 6 MOA dot to a 3 MOA dot and just shooting the streak, then cranking up to the brightness to appear bigger if needed. Is that the sense here as well or is the rabbit hole leading me too far from the beaten path?



Time to start price checking SRO's I guess...
*edit* $499 all over the place. Gulp. Ummm.... maybe not for this poor.

One other thing to keep in mind from these podcasts that I think is under appreciated...

Is that these guys are essentially pro-level and their equipment choices might not be appropriate for people at different skill levels.

The equipment a professional golfer uses with regards to club shaft flex and loft... isn’t and shouldn’t be the same as someone who is a 20 handicapper.

So YMMV.

Personally, I started off with the huge 7.5 MOA DPP that seems more like a 30 MOA blob and then moved to something smaller when I was accurate enough to make headshots and I wanted more feedback. Right now I’m happy with 5-6 MOA but could see smaller being just fine in the future. I think Max Michel (CO champ) was running the larger size dot on his Romeo3Max, IIRC.

[David S.]

I'll offer the dubious perspective that an RDS specific class it not needed.......

Having attended RDS specific classes with both Fisher and Jedi, I agree. As you seek out marksmanship training, I do think there's value in biasing your training choices to instructors with recent, extensive RDS experience, but I'm not sure a RDS specific class is strictly necessary. If anything, a 4 hour RDS familiarization clinic is plenty to get you started.

Shooting the dot requires more refinement than irons: the dot leaves the window on left and right side about same time my front BUIS is touching the rear. (I do run a fairly narrow front sight post so my light bars are relatively wide.) Elevation is similar. The dot leaves the window about when the front sight is only about half way out of the notch vertically. There is very little margin for error. Much of RDS specific nature of RDS classes is simply developing the necessary precision during the draw and during recoil.

[Magsz]

Having attended RDS specific classes with both Fisher and Jedi, I agree. As you seek out marksmanship training, I do think there's value in biasing your training choices to instructors with recent, extensive RDS experience, but I'm not sure a RDS specific class is strictly necessary. If anything, a 4 hour RDS familiarization clinic is plenty to get you started.

Shooting the dot requires more refinement than irons: the dot leaves the window on left and right side about same time my front BUIS is touching the rear. (I do run a fairly narrow front sight post so my light bars are relatively wide.) Elevation is similar. The dot leaves the window about when the front sight is only about half way out of the notch vertically. There is very little margin for error. Much of RDS specific nature of RDS classes is simply developing the necessary precision during the draw and during recoil.

Marksmanship fundamentals are the same across the board whether you are shooting a dot or shooting irons. The sight picture element is one where there could be conversation but its not THAT much different.

What IS different is providing ways in which students with prior experience can access drills and techniques in order to change how they're focusing on the application. The "proper" way to shoot a dot is to look at the target, not your sights so to speak. There are a sequence of drills, including occluded eye drills that will help give the student an "ah ha" moment during his transition phase. Realistically, with an educated shooter, all of this can be accomplished with time behind the gun, much like everything with shooting.

The other area where RDS specific classes shine is preparing the student for worst possible outcomes. Dot failure, water on the lens, mud on the lens etc. I've been shooting for a while and i've never really seen instructors teaching a "your iron sights have mud on them, what do you do!" kind of lesson block. Sure, instinctive, point shooting, indexing off of the slide shooting is a technique that is and has been taught but i've never seen real emphasis on this versus all of the potential shit that CAN go wrong with a red dot.

Ultimately, I think that quality instructors offering RDS classes is a boon to the industry and really doesn't take away from anything. I just think that some instructors are better than others and that the student has to be realistic in what they're hoping to get out of the class. An RDS specific class is not going to turn you into a master class shooter if you're a low C class shit show. That statement is applicable across the board regardless of class intent.

[SoCalDep]

Having attended red dot classes from multiple instructors, and worked quite a bit with instruction and use of a pistol optic I will agree that a red dot class isn't needed.

I disagree with everything else said in the attached facebook group and some of these posts.

A red dot class isn't "needed". Firearm training in general isn't "needed". There are top level competitors out there who have never taken a formal training class.

That said, I'm disappointed in the content of that facebook group content and I feel that without the context of why one is using a dot on a pistol making statements like training isn't "needed" is misguided at best.

Of course the biggest issue is finding the dot (from the draw, ready positions, strong and support hand, after reloads and malfunction clearances, from different positions, in different lighting conditions, against moving and multiple targets, and while stressed and distracted)... but as Rob Leatham has said on other subjects it might be simple, but not easy. Having an instructor with the ability to monitor performance, diagnose problems, and guide improvement is a big deal. Scott Jedlinski is phenomenal at this.

One of the comments in that facebook group involved the question as to why a law enforcement agency would want red-dot specific instructor training and the suggestion that any instructor should be able to teach a dot simply because they are a good instructor. I work with a lot of instructors and interact with instructors from multiple local, state, and federal agencies. I've worked hard to understand and maximize my performance with a dot and develop the ability to help other people maximize their performance. It did not come easy or fast. It didn't come easy or fast for those I've worked with or seen. I've worked for a large law enforcement agency for almost two decades and as a firearm instructor for over half my career. I've conducted test and evaluation of new equipment, revised curriculum, and developed new curriculum. I've stood in front of department executives, elected politicians, and civilian oversight groups to propose, defend and explain what we teach and the equipment we use. I know exactly why the facebook group poster's department wants a dot-specific instructor class and they aren't dumb to require it. One fuckup by one person that can't be explained to a satisfactory level by the department "experts" and a whole program can go away. We can all bitch about how wrong that is but it doesn't solve it, fix it, or prevent it. There's a lot that goes into law enforcement training and much of it requires knowledge. We can get that through experience but it's a rough road. Training has a tendency to make that road smoother and our travel faster. I'm curious how those well known instructors don't understand that.

I already tend to be too wordy, so I won't go into the additional myriad of things one should cover in a pistol optic class that are distinct and separate skills from iron sight shooting, but I'm sure we'll get there soon. That said, there's plenty of material that should be presented in order to ensure the person using the optic understands best practices, what can go wrong, how to fix and adapt to that - and how to prevent it from going wrong in the first place- and how to practice to continue to develop and maintain their skillset and knowledge gained during the actual instruction.

[GJM]

The way things are going, I am thinking that all pistol classes should be red dots specific, and the specialty class should be on iron sights.

[Nephrology]

The way things are going, I am thinking that all pistol classes should be red dots specific, and the specialty class should be on iron sights.

Send me a few of your ACROs and I'd be inclined to agree

[ranger]

The way things are going, I am thinking that all pistol classes should be red dots specific, and the specialty class should be on iron sights.

The Army started running into this as Optics started rolling out. At some point, Optics become the primary and Iron Sights the secondary but there is a technical and cultural transition.

[GJM]

Send me a few of your ACROs and I'd be inclined to agree

I would but I’m not sure a struggling intern could afford the battery bill?