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Thread: Stoeger's New Book

  1. #11
    Member olstyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bofe954 View Post
    To me C/B is bloated because that's where you get if you rarely practice and just shoot fairly regularly for a few years.

    Most people I know don't practice and rarely if ever dryfire. I'm not talking about people that aren't into the sport either. I am talking about people who shoot at least weekly and several big matches a year.
    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    It doesn’t make people feel good, but C class generally doesn’t dry fire and if they do, they’re not focusing when they practice. “A” class is where you point the gun and it’s pretty close to where you wanted it to be and the trigger press isn’t throwing the gun all over the place.

    Again, sorry to those that feel poorly about it, but if you want something you can get it if you work hard and smart.
    Speaking as a C class Production shooter and being brutally honest with myself, these guys are telling the truth. I'm at a level where I'm competent, and I feel that I would be likely to "win" in a real-world defensive encounter, but I 100% know that if I dedicated the time, effort, and money (ammo) to it, I could get a LOT better than I am. Maybe not quickly into M, but at bare minimum, moving from C-->B, and then probably A, should be something I can do.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    Well, humble you are not So you’re saying the biggest handicap to making M is getting primers? (I make joke)
    No. The biggest hurdle to making M is looking for excuses and not really focusing and being dedicated during dryfire.

    I’m being matter of fact here. Getting “M” means you put in the hours and didn’t wait for someone else to tell you what you did wrong every step of the way.

    That’s why there’s a faction of snippy mcsnippersons here who are so off put by my bluntness.
    There really is no excuse for a 5+ second FAST drill or being C class if someone really wants it AND is willing to work at it.

    It’s okay to decide the time isn’t worth it. But it’s a motivation thing, not a biological limitation thing. I didn’t start shooting until I was into my 40s, I’m married with a busy job and a kiddo. Significant health issues in family members over the past year and was still able to make Master in my free time. Because I put in the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoTacTravis View Post
    As someone with a goal to go from noob to A class in a calendar year after I finally get vaccinated I find this post motivating.

    Coming a from a BJJ background your logic is straight from the same training and consistency playbook. Also, from my admittedly limited experience, most shooters don't train like most semi-serious BJJ hobbyists.

    5-10 hours per week of dryfire as a part of training shouldn't be considered a lot of commitment compared to most other combat sports, IMO.
    Exactly. Every year in the local clubs you have random people who rocket through the ranks and others who make excuses and don’t improve. It sounds like you will put in the work and improve quickly.

  3. #13
    Classification is a funny concept. At matches, nobody cares what your classification is, or for that matter if you are a junior, senior, super senior or lady. We all try to beat each other regardless of class and division.

    Those of us shooting the game, know that there is a fair amount of luck involved — in the number of classifiers you have a chance to shoot, what specific classifiers you get, and how you perform on that particular attempt. While there are certainly more people under classified than over classified, I have long maintained there are more M shooters in B class than in M class.

    While classifiers have started to include more movement, they are biased towards stand and shoot skills, whereas USPSA field courses are heavily movement oriented. I really wish I could shoot my classification percentage in a major match.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Classification is a funny concept. At matches, nobody cares what your classification is, or for that matter if you are a junior, senior, super senior or lady. We all try to beat each other regardless of class and division.

    Those of us shooting the game, know that there is a fair amount of luck involved — in the number of classifiers you have a chance to shoot, what specific classifiers you get, and how you perform on that particular attempt. While there are certainly more people under classified than over classified, I have long maintained there are more M shooters in B class than in M class.

    While classifiers have started to include more movement, they are biased towards stand and shoot skills, whereas USPSA field courses are heavily movement oriented. I really wish I could shoot my classification percentage in a major match.
    Totally agree. Classification IMO is a separate goal from match performance. Stoeger also talked about that in his books regarding paper GM.

    There are also people who classed M 15 years ago and are now struggling to perform at a B level.
    There are also people who hero or zero classifiers in their pursuit of classification.

    I think most people who shoot at an M level make at least A given enough time (might have difficulties if they don’t practice standing reloads or weak hand).

    But regardless, there are definitely caveats and classification doesn’t equal match performance.

    In the same way that a sub-5 FAST or successful dot torture doesn’t mean you’ll do well in an actual gunfight. It’s more an indication of specific skills when not totally gamed out.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by olstyn View Post
    Speaking as a C class Production shooter and being brutally honest with myself, these guys are telling the truth. I'm at a level where I'm competent, and I feel that I would be likely to "win" in a real-world defensive encounter, but I 100% know that if I dedicated the time, effort, and money (ammo) to it, I could get a LOT better than I am. Maybe not quickly into M, but at bare minimum, moving from C-->B, and then probably A, should be something I can do.
    This is so true. I'm C class limited. I just don't dryfire or live fire what it takes to move up. I'm competent, I think I have enough skill to take care of most realistic shooting problems, and that's where I sit.

    Do I want to move up in skill and classification? Yes. Do I want to dedicate myself to the time it will take to get there? I'm not sure. Steve Anderson used to say it's important to define your level of participation so you can be realistic with your expectations. I think most C class shooters who aren't moving up but want to fail at that. With my other pursuits being weaker than my shooting they get attention until they're at least on par. Then I can get back to working hard at improving my pistol craft.

    Breakthrough marksmenship is an excellent resource to learn how to tell what you're doing wrong from your target.

  6. #16
    WTF is up with all this book of the month club stuff.

    First I bought Champion Shooting - Guaranteed Results in 15 Minutes a Day then I bought Practical Pistol - Fundamental Techniques a Competition Skills then I bought Dry-Fire Training for the Practical Pistol Shooter, now, I have to admit at that time I was working full time and my primary competition interest was NRA Action Pistol, so I didn't really do anything but read through them.

    Fast forward, I've been retired a couple years, the NRA has pretty much killed off Action Pistol, so I'm looking for a new shooting game. When a USPSA League formed at my gun club, I decided to jump in and give it a try at the ripe old age of 65.

    Bottom line is, despite the fact of my general above average police shooting skills, I sucked at run and gun, which really kind of surprised me, because I had taken and was doing a lot of police related run and gun training. So I decide to dust off the books and get a little more active on this forum and the Doodie Project (which I found has all but died.) In doing that, I found out that Stoeger had made a 'reloaded' of everything I had. So, of course I bought them all. Some changes, improvements, but, meh.

    Now another 'must have' surfaces.

    I'm planning on seeing how much of a sense of humor Mr. Stoeger has when I quiz him about such shenanigans if I get a one-on-one moment in February at the class I'm taking with him.

    Seriously, I'm looking forward to the chance to learn from him, I've been dry firing my ass off for the last four or five months, hopefully I can keep up and make use of the course.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cory View Post
    This is so true. I'm C class limited. I just don't dryfire or live fire what it takes to move up. I'm competent, I think I have enough skill to take care of most realistic shooting problems, and that's where I sit.

    Do I want to move up in skill and classification? Yes. Do I want to dedicate myself to the time it will take to get there? I'm not sure. Steve Anderson used to say it's important to define your level of participation so you can be realistic with your expectations. I think most C class shooters who aren't moving up but want to fail at that. With my other pursuits being weaker than my shooting they get attention until they're at least on par. Then I can get back to working hard at improving my pistol craft.

    Breakthrough marksmenship is an excellent resource to learn how to tell what you're doing wrong from your target.
    There is nothing wrong with C class if that’s your level of investment. You’re still a better shooter than 95%+ of the general population. I could score better if I practiced my putting and golf short game but I really don’t care to.

    Nothing wrong with that at all.

  8. #18
    Member Zincwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    It’s not on Amazon yet, I looked. Any other recommendations on his books? I’ve heard nothing but good things about them.
    Try now LL. I was able to order it.

    Thank you for the heads up. I've been stuck at C level for some time. In 2020 I had started improving substantially with a goal to move to B. Realistically with my (rapidly declining) eyesight and hip issues I was thinking B was a realistic top level, but Covid kicked the family hard. Now trying again. I never had a realistic timeline of how much dryfire was needed or specific drills so this is a nice bottom line.
    Last edited by Zincwarrior; 01-26-2021 at 08:39 AM.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Eyesquared View Post

    Some minor gripes: There are some typos and other mistakes in the text, and a few of the par times are kind of fucked up (i.e. breakdowns for drills not adding up to total par time, a couple of the par times for level 3 are actually harder than the ones for level 4, etc.), but you can generally figure out what Ben and Joel meant. One general criticism is that it is pretty hard to look at this book and concretely figure out a training plan if you do not already know how to train. The sample plans in Dryfire Reloaded had their limitations but I think some example plans would have been useful in this book.

    Overall, highly recommended if you care about shooting a pistol and are willing to read a book. For better or for worse this is the only book of its kind, so you'd have to be stupid not to read this one. Furthermore, I have become a big believer in the efficacy of Stoeger's material. When I first read his books a few years ago I was not impressed, thinking that his way of describing everything sounded too simple to be true. However, over the course of a year, following his training methods has taken me from finishing around 70-80% at my club match to 98% at my most recent match, so I can't argue with results.

    So this book is much different from the others? What would be your recommendation for ONE of his books, to start? With today's ammo prices, I am wondering if Dyfire Reloaded should be that recommendation?

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by beenalongtime View Post
    So this book is much different from the others? What would be your recommendation for ONE of his books, to start? With today's ammo prices, I am wondering if Dyfire Reloaded should be that recommendation?
    Picking one of the books alone is hard because they really do cover different material, but I think if you must only pick one I would pick either this latest book or Dryfire Reloaded.

    If you pick Practical Shooting Training just keep in mind that you should be proactive in doing the standard exercises in dryfire, and adapting the other exercises to dry fire where applicable, because many of them work just as well if not better dry.

    If you pick Dryfire Reloaded I would throw out all the categories of drills (eg. Elements, Scenarios, Standards), and for each practice session, just pick 3 drills to do, rather than working on one category per practice session.

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