Real World 3" Ballistics Info (specifically from 856 Steel Defender)+2"& 4" Data

[DanTheWolfman]

Hello....and Yes...I am this borderline Spectrum nerdy....
I've been wanting an 856 Defender for awhile, love 3" wheelies which have in .357...paid more attention to .357 ballistics than .38 to an extent, and I am also looking at .357 Charter Professional 3" .357 so wanted to get more 3" specific data (though yes gun manufacturer-Rugers shoot fastest that I know off outside of not knowing Manurhin or Korth data and gun to gun can have different speed barrels but still hard to compile 3" data).

Anyways, I got data out of my friend Gun Sam's testing with his steel framed 856 Defender External Ballistics ie Velocity chrono averages & thought some may like real world numbers from one compiled @jetfire . Given the lots of interest in the old 856 thread, and some attention in my own Defender/Executive 3" thread.......I thought some other people may want this data to figure out carry loads or to see some differences vs 2" and 4" barrels.

I know some only worry about penetration and not expansion and will stick with 148 WC or 158 SWCHP's with velocity too low and lead too hard they won't expand even from a 3" barrel. However, for carry I want something that actually expands and know a lot of people do as well.

Oh I know how bad people want to shut down the data, but as I have shown, his very particular 4 layer Denim Testing protocol WHILE adding a 1/4" Medium Density Fiber board 3" in has compared very closely to the Official REAL Gel 4 layer Testing in ALL Pistol Calibers from Vista and Hornady...with similar enough penetration and expansion numbers to give very close Tissue Crush Value Numbers....that seems to equate within decent enough % difference than one would get from different barrel lengths or lot to lot differences. Not official enough for you? Well OK then, but given loads we don't have data on, and especially in .38 (especially in 3") where there is very little data, I think that it is useful information to make educated guesses to real world performance.

I have given Hornady's Official 4 layer Real Gel and Vista's Speer/Federal Official Real Gel 4 layer data before which is comparable.

[DanTheWolfman]

Please no one delete this data it takes awhile to compile and I want a reference for myself and others. Thank you.
Don't know POA/POI for the Defenders...and if with night sight (& with which type of hold) or regular ramp installed...some reporting similar to 130 fmj, others reporting closer to 158 standard pressure pud loads....so POI should be figured out for your particular Revo but this might be helpful in pointing a direction in carry ammo selection.

3" Steel Taurus 856 Defender unless otherwise noted

THESE 3 Loads tested particularly good from the Taurus 3" steel 856 Defender
135 +P Gold Dot Short Barrel 913 fps 5-shot Avg. 250 ft. lbs. ME
MDF Results 13.5" Pen .50 Exp.

Critical Defense 110+P This load tested 2 different days Day 1 1036 fps avg. 262 ft. lbs. ME , Day 2 1039 fps 264 ft. lbs. ME (2" 605 for comparison 952 fps 221 ME)
Day 1 MDF Results 12.25" Pen .527 Exp Day 2 MDF Results 13" .513 Exp

Ultimate Defense FULL SIZE 125+P 967 Avg 259 ft. lbs. ME
MDF Results 11.5" Pen approximately .60 avg Exp (1 petal made Max larger)

This common load expanded decently well
Remington HTP 110+P 1068 fps avg 279 ft. lbs. ME (2" 605 for comparison 980 fps 235 ME)
MDF Results 12.25" Pen .488 Exp

These loads did not expand well, even from the 3" barrel
Federal Punch 120+P 1056 fps avg 297 ft. lbs ME
MDF Results 16.75" Pen app .42 Exp (obviously would like to see multiple sources of REAL Calibrated Gel Testing on this one)

Underwood 125+P w/XTP Bullet 1132 fps avg 356 ft. lbs ME
(the UD 125 Gold Dot/Bonded would perform MUCH better but out of stock & not tested in 3"-Does anyone here have any of them or tested them?)
MDF Results 21" Pen w/ little expansion deformation

Winchester SuperX Silvertip 125+P 904 fps avg 227 ft. lbs. ME
MDF Results 16.5" .378

HTP 158+P Lead HP 870 fps avg 265 ft. lbs. ME
MDF Results 13.5" .363


To Be Continued with loads that would perform well both standard and +p pressure FBI Style 158 Loads but with/Soft Lead SWCHP from both Underwood & Buffalo Bore

[DanTheWolfman]

These Loads were tested in either 1 7/8" or 2" barrels and 4" barrels so an educated guess on 3" performance can be had. Buffalo Bore Barnes Tac-XP loads should also be considered though expensive.
These loads from a 3" barrel turn a .38+P into low end 2" .357 Mag territory. Remember, the 158 LSWCHP loaded by both Underwood & Buffalo Bore are Softer lead than previous "FBI" or "Chicago" loadings.....so better on direct biped hits...less better on barriers

Underwood Standard Pressure 158 LSWCHP Rated by Underwood at 980 fps-LOW RECOIL
Gun Sam 1 7/8" 743 fps 194 ft. lbs. ME Good Penetration and Expansion Low Recoil even from LW snub
4" 686 823 fps 238 ft. lbs. ME

Reviewer Posted these numbers for Underwood 158+P LSWCHP Rated at 1160 fps Medium-Heavy Recoil
2" 605 1052 fps 388 ft. lbs. ME stated 2" 3-Layer Clear Gel Results of 14.75" .621
4" 586 1170 fps 480 ft. lbs. ME

Buffalo Bore 158 Standard Pressure LSWCHP Manageable Recoil
Buffalo Bore Reports
2" 854 fps 256 ft. lbs. ME Gun Sam 2" 605 916 fps 294 ft. lbs. ME MDF Results 12" Pen .622 Exp
2.5" 871 fps 266 ft. lbs. ME
3" 930 fps 303 ft. lbs. ME
4" 979 fps 336 ft. lbs. ME Gun Sam 4" 686 1014 fps 316 ft. lbs. ME MDF Results 13.25" Pen .633 Exp

Buffalo Bore 158 PLUS P: HEAVY Recoil & LOUD Powerful Load
Buffalo Bore Reports
2" 1040 fps 379 ft. lbs. ME Gun Sam 2" 605 1060 fps 394 ft. lbs. ME MDF Results 14.5" Pen .621 Exp
2.5" 1059 fps 393 ft. lbs. ME
3" 1143 fps 458 ft. lbs. ME
4" 1162 474 ft. lbs. ME Gun Sam 4" 686 1189 fps 496 ft. lbs. ME MDF Results 17.5" Pen .641 Exp


And a balancing reminder quote from DrGkr on the issue of 2" and under snub loads
"Currently, the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP, Winchester 130 gr bonded +P JHP (RA38B), and Barnes 110 gr XPB all copper JHP (for ex. in the Corbon DPX loading) offer the most reliable expansion we have seen from a .38 sp 2” BUG; Hornady 110 gr standard pressure and +P Critical Defense loads also offer good performance out of 2" barrel revolvers."

Also on that note, I can't find the 135+p short barreled Gold Dot to purchase, but I can find the 125 Plus P Gold Dot. I assume he left it out as it didn't perform as well from snubs? Tests I have seen were it plugged w/ denim. Just wondering if anyone knows more....like it does perform well 4" but doesn't expand 2" so 3" is unknown territory on the 125 plus p gold dot .38 load?

[DanTheWolfman]

Also, here are some FBI Tests Results I came about. Old 4-Layer Testing
FBI TEST 7/27/90 Federal 125 grain sjhp 3" S&W13=1265 Velocity 4 layer 11.75" .51.
FBI TEST 2/28/91 Federal 158 grain sjhp S&W19 4"=1200 fps 4 layer 15.9" .64=5.12 cu in" Tissue Crush.

I believe the avg Human male body 6" wide front to back, 7.9" diagonally to heart from different angles, 9.3" various angles through entire body, 16.3" avg shoulder width is that correct?

Also, this has 89/90 FBI data in it...including from 3" S&W M13's w/ both .38 and .357 though if those are 4-layer test results or more likely an Averaging of all tests I am not sure it states. Also, there Tissue Crush Adj Vol numbers seem way low...if those are somehow accurate please explain how to get such.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...bi-ammo-tests/

Should be noted that the FBI approved .357 magnum load for their 3" M13's was the 145 gr Silvertip

Also, the approved load for the especially tight toleranced special 3" (not typical 2 3/4") GS33 Ruger Six for the Postal Service Inspectors was the Federal 125 sjhp

[03RN]

Here's some velocity numbers
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....09-9mm-in-a-38
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....75-quot-barrel

And you should be a little more transparent that all your penetration numbers are with clear gel.

[JCN]

As an aside: 9mm from an LCR9 is basically identical to a P365 velocity.

And very mild recoil.

So I can use the same well vetted 9mm ammo in a revolver and be confident of its performance.

I personally prefer the 147gr HST+P 9mm out of revolvers. To the point where I have a number of 38/357 snubs converted to 9mm.

Why reinvent the wheel, I would rather go with what’s tried and true. And less blasty and easier to shoot in 9mm in a snub.

[DanTheWolfman]

Other compiled .38 Data
Test Barrel Lengths need to be taken into consideration.
Here is VISTA LE Speer Official 4-Layer Heavy Clothing & Steel REAL GEL Data for .38 and .357 Gold Dot...take note of the miss-placed mistake .38 GD Weight and Retained Weight. The 945 fps listed matches there 125+p Load Fired from a 4V barrel & the Terminal Ballistics Listed for such. The 135+P Short Barrel load when looked at individually does not give any Gel testing data fyi. .357 fired from 4V barrel.


Here is Hornady LE Official 4-Layer Heavy Clothing REAL GEL Data
S&W 637 1.875"


FBI 1989 DATA!

[DanTheWolfman]

Other .38 Data

[DanTheWolfman]

Here's some velocity numbers
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....09-9mm-in-a-38
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....75-quot-barrel

And you should be a little more transparent that all your penetration numbers are with clear gel.

Thanks for those...

Yes, when I say MDF results it is one person's particular protocol w/ 4-Layer Denim 3" clear Ballistics 10%, a 1/4" MDF=Medium Density Fiber Board...followed by a 10% Clear Ballistics Block. On seeing fairly close correlation, I have gone over all available results COMPARING very favorably so far in ALL Calibers to all Official Data from VistaLE 4-layer Heavy Clothing for Speer Gold Dots & Federal HSTs as well as well as Hornady LE Critical Duty & Critical Defense 4-layer Heavy Clothing Results.

Comparing Official 4-Layer Heavy Clothing results to 4-layer Denim+MDF Protocol Results. These results are certainly far closer to Real Gel results, then the lower density Clear Gel by itslef
HST MDF Results 9mm=3.734 cu " TC(Vista Real Gel=3.799), .40=5.665 cu" TC(Vista Real Gel=6.283), .45=8.105 cu" TC (Vista Real Gel=8.08). Vista Data these rounds .45 is 2.126X more Tissue Crush than the 9mm round, & 1.286x More Tissue Crush than the .40. Gun Sam's MDF Data this .45 round is 2.17X more than this 9mm, and 1.43x More than this .40 round. Vista's 180 gr .40 Data is 1.653X more Tissue Crush then this 124plus P 9mm, and Gun Sam's MDF Data 1.517x More Tissue Crush than this 9mm round. Overall very Similar Results

Gold Dot data More MDF 9mm 124+p ur 3.2" 16.5 .544=3.84 cu in" Tissue Crush compares to 4" Vista REAL GEL 14.13 .60=4.04 cu in" TC . This .38 gold dot load 2" 12" .508=2.43" vs Vista Real Gel 11" .576=2.87 from 4v"

More Gold Dot data Ur 165gr .40 5" barrel 19" .616=5.66 cu in" Tissue Crush vs Spear REAL GEL 4 Layer Data from 4" Barrel 18" .618 5.4 cu in" Tissue Crush. Underwood 125gr .357 GD 21" .594= (only 18" Given per FBI Protocol) 4.99 cu in TC" (compared to Critical Duty TC 3.67").

Critical Duty Data .45 MDF Protocol 17" .615=TC Adj Volume 5.05" Compared to Official Hornady REAL GEL 14.5 .69=5.42 cu in" .357 MDF 14.5 .558-TC Adj Volume 3.55" Compared to Hornady REAL GEL 14.4 .57=3.67" (8V" barrel).

[DanTheWolfman]

[QUOTE=JCN;1430984]As an aside: 9mm from an LCR9 is basically identical to a P365 velocity.

And very mild recoil.

So I can use the same well vetted 9mm ammo in a revolver and be confident of its performance.

I personally prefer the 147gr HST+P 9mm out of revolvers. To the point where I have a number of 38/357 snubs converted to 9mm.

Why reinvent the wheel, I would rather go with what’s tried and true. And less blasty and easier to shoot in 9mm in a snub.

JCN are you MAC? Because that looks like some Military Arms Channel pics to me.......

Re 9mm I have a convertible 3" 7-shot ported .357 (is it actually 2 1/2" then 1/2" free chamber ported?)
I figured I would get close to 1200 fps from a 9mm 124 plus P, and Federal 125 gr SJHP perhaps 1375 fps but that is perhaps a bit optimistic.

I sold other 3" 6-shot 9mm because of lockup issues & perceived quality when firing very rapid fire drills as shown on video in my review