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Thread: accuracy vs speed

  1. #21
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    im strong, i can run faster than train

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by vcdgrips View Post
    “You are probably used to shooting at 2 dimensional targets.”

    Now who is ASSuming (yeah I caught the first time...)

    No -I have actually shot 3D targets at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, with Randy Cain and with multiple agencies.

    You do not have to set out your education, training or experience for anything you post here on this forum.
    i.e. the lack of a training resume or your background re 2D v 3D targets, tactical anatomy etc.

    Just don’t expect to be as believed or as taken seriously by many on the forum if you do not.
    Hey, any of the super fancy 3D targets at those classes have heads that tilt on the proper axis?

    The thing with a head is that the point of axis rotation is really far back and the face hangs off. So trying to pick your target based on the face is a fools errand. You literally have to be aiming at the brainstem and the face is where it is.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnO View Post
    You must establish a baseline. Find a few drills that are repeatable and time your performance shooting the drills. Your time is not your best performance it must be your typical or average performance. Once you have data on your abilities then you work to reduce the time it takes to achieve an acceptable score.

    Here are a few suggestions to try,

    ...
    Those are excellent, thanks for posting.

    Meanwhile, back to the OP...

    Quote Originally Posted by petergently View Post
    I am practising various areas of shooting. Mainly first on accuracy. But quesions are how to balance the practice to concentrating on accuracy and speed. For example, if on a 6 yard shooting with my Glock 19 gen 4 with an accuracy most shots within 1 to 1.5 inch of the target, should I move more into practice of speed?
    A good benchmark in "shooting fast and accurate" is Gabe White's signature Technical Skills Test. Funny you mention six rounds; that is one of the tests (Bill Drill).

    For the sake of having an objective of "what is good" to discuss, these are defined at Gabe's web site, here:

    http://www.gabewhitetraining.com/tec...-skills-tests/

    Here are the rules:

    All are shot on a single USPSA Metric or IDPA target or similar, with either a 4″ circle or 3×5″ card added to the head, at a distance of 7 yards. The shooter can start with hands at sides, hands at high torso, or a hands-up surrender position. At the start signal, the shooter draws and engages the target exactly as required by the drill. No extra shots are allowed. Your score is your time, with penalties added for shots outside the A/-0 zone. B/C/-1 zone hits add .25 seconds per shot. D-zone hits add 1 second per shot. Misses add 2 seconds per shot. Head shots that land in the body count as misses. Body shots that land in the head count as lucky shots and are scored."

    Fora "pin" in Gabe's class, the maximum Bill Drill times are:

    Dark Pin - 3.5s
    Light Pin - 2.5s
    Turbo Pin - 2.00s

    My best time on the Bill Drill in the class I took with Gabe was 3.49s, shot from an open USPSA rig with my Gen 5 Glock 19.

    So, with that, how fast do you shoot a 1.5" group at 6 yards?


    Quote Originally Posted by petergently View Post
    And how accurate can I expect to become with "resonable" practice? (I know that is a very vaque question).
    That's also a bit of an unknown. So let's introduce a common "accuracy" standard, shooting groups at 25 yards, using an NRA B-8. I myself work on that exercise as part of the metrics I've chosen to track my shooting. My best score lifetime is an 87-1X, again with my Glock 19.

    So, with that in mind, have you shot a group at 25 yards? If so, what was your score? Based on observing what I would call "good" shooters here, putting 10 rounds in the black (5.54" circle), standing two handed, under ideal conditions, untimed, is pretty good shooting.
    Last edited by RJ; 01-13-2021 at 03:40 PM.

  4. #24
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    FYI. You are placing your rounds too high. At least two of those rounds look like they will result in nothing more than a headache. The round above the right eyebrow is also questionable as to whether it will penetrate.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    Illustration for you guys with the area you’re trying to hit circled.

    Chin down. Forehead.
    Attachment 66106

    Face neutral. Traditional T zone.
    Attachment 66107
    Why did you circle the cerebellum? From the side profile that aiming point is too far back and a little low. The middle of the yellow circle should be over the ear hole.
    im strong, i can run faster than train

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnO View Post
    FYI. You are placing your rounds too high. At least two of those rounds look like they will result in nothing more than a headache. The round above the right eyebrow is also questionable as to whether it will penetrate.
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    I’m going to disagree with you, but you do you.
    I’m guessing you didn’t see the video in that it wasn’t slow fire aimed shots.
    Three separate runs off a transition.

    Seems like you might want to pick some better ammo, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caballoflaco View Post
    Why did you circle the cerebellum? From the side profile that aiming point is too far back and a little low. The middle of the yellow circle should be over the ear hole.
    I was wondering when the nit pickers would arrive! Through the medulla into the cerebellum so if you’re lateral to the small vertical stripe of actual brainstem you’ll still hit important basic functional tissue.

    You guys, man.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caballoflaco View Post
    Why did you circle the cerebellum? From the side profile that aiming point is too far back and a little low. The middle of the yellow circle should be over the ear hole.
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnO View Post
    FYI. You are placing your rounds too high. At least two of those rounds look like they will result in nothing more than a headache. The round above the right eyebrow is also questionable as to whether it will penetrate.
    Quote Originally Posted by vcdgrips View Post
    1. Your mechanics are better than mine as well. Feel better?

    2. There is nothing nebulus about being all in for the "higher" score to count.

    3. The "hostage" target illustrates hits that are far too high on the forehead to ensure as close to instant incapacitation as possible as they are well above the "T-Box"

    Have you had any instruction in the intersections of shooting and anatomy/physiology?

    Edited to add: Gabe White is the first and only person to shoot a perfect 125 from concealment at the Rogers School. Go to the Rogers School and do that before you compare yourself to Gabe White in any way.
    Okay gents. Here you go. I picked MRIs so that it would be anatomically correct.

    The MRIs I show here are with varying degrees of neck flexion (chin down, like in the target).

    The conventional “T-box” does not hit the medulla and you’d have to go through the forehead to get to the brainstem if they’re tucked.

    If your ammo can’t get through cortical bone, you should probably go up from 32ACP.

    Mild chin tuck.
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    Severe chin tuck. See how far up you’d have to aim?
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  8. #28
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    I could live without all these technical threads devolving into ridiculous nitpicking about how JCN is maybe, kind of, technically, a little bit wrong on some point. We've now got two pages of how he maybe didn't shoot a target in a rapid transition drill in the right part of the face.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by RancidSumo View Post
    I could live without all these technical threads devolving into ridiculous nitpicking about how JCN is maybe, kind of, technically, a little bit wrong on some point. We've now got two pages of how he maybe didn't shoot a target in a rapid transition drill in the right part of the face.
    This. Or questioning his training credentials. I don't think it matters how you get to that point. I advise people to get the best training they can because I don't think the math pencils out on getting there through self study. It's certainly doable though. JCN is a great new contributor. He could've maybe picked a better first thread to post but so what.

  10. #30
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Perhaps I'm the guilty party for criticizing a target. I didn't want to cause a crap storm. Over the years I've seen many shooters improperly target the head. Yes some because the round did not go exactly were they intended but in many cases a improper understanding of handgun projectile performance v. the human head and anatomy.

    One can draw all the lines they want through sagittal MRI images. Handgun rounds don't follow lines. Plenty of handgun rounds that have impacted above the eyebrows have not penetrated the human skull. If you want to damage to the brain you have to breach the skull. The window of entry is widely recognized as the area between the eyebrows and the base of the nose and between and including the eyes for a face on target.

    Additionally it's tough enough to hit a credit card sized target on an uncooperative animated being. Picking or having access to the exact angle to a specific sweet spot buried within is not feasible.

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