Thumb conundrum

[Chewbacca10]

I'm new here, so try not to roast me too much.

Here's the background to my question. A few years ago, I started trying to get better at shooting as opposed to just acquiring firearms. At that point, I started shooting one centerfire handgun (an HK P30) about 95 percent of the time that I shot centerfire instead of switching between firearms. In the past year, I have been dry firing two to four times a week. Fairly recently, I bought Stay in the Fight by Kyle Lamb at the recommendation of a friend who has extensive experience with firearms, including several tours of duty.

Here's where the trouble starts. Lamb recommends a thumbs-forward grip and has some great illustrations to accompany just what he means. Given that Lamb has more experience with firearms in a month of his life than I will have in the entire course of mine, I changed my grip from a support-hand-thumb-over-trigger-hand-thumb grip to the thumbs-forward grip. I have been practicing with it for a few weeks.

Now, I have not had a chance to go to the range with live ammunition yet to see what I think of the thumbs-forward grip. However, in practice with Snap Caps, I find it quite uncomfortable compared to the way that I usually grip my P30. I see a couple of ways of viewing my experience so far:

1. I just need more time to acclimate myself to the new grip. Thus far, I have spent about two hours with the thumbs-forward grip in the basement. Once I practice more extensively with it, I'll be a better shooter.

2. That grip just does not work for me, and rather than try and completely change my grip, I ought to continue with what seems to be working for me and work on building other skills from there.

I should probably specify that I am not interested in competition shooting or shooting pretty touching groups. I'm interested in reasonable accuracy at reasonable speed for self-defense purposes (my current benchmark that I use to measure my progress is the FBI qualification test). Obviously, those terms are open to interpretation, but that's a rough description of why I am shooting handguns.

So, any thoughts? Is the thumbs-forward grip essential to becoming a competent defensive shooter? Or should I focus my time and energy elsewhere?

Thank you in advance.

[Eyesquared]

I'm going to go with #1. 2 hours really isn't a long time to spend on something like your grip. I can't really think of any reason in particular that a thumbs forward grip wouldn't work for someone unless they had very little wrist mobility.

[spinmove_]

A proper thumbs-forward grip has been the staple of top shooters since the ‘80s. Unless you have some SERIOUS mobility issues I can’t see it not working for you.

I strongly suggest taking a class from a reputable instructor for some nuanced instruction on this as trying to figure this out on your own can go south really quick.

2 hours is hardly any time to work on your grip though. I couldn’t tell you how many hours I have on working on my grip and I’m always looking for ways to make it better.

[YVK]

I am going with option 3: where your thumbs are pointing is irrelevant, thumbs orientation is not a defining parameter of a good grip. It is secondary to whatever else we do to get a good grip.
I work on getting a grip that I wanna get, with a specific attention to what each aspect of a grip does for me, and let thumbs be where they may end up. My support thumb is almost forward, my strong thumb never is. In fact, if it is truly forward, it usually means that I failed to do what I strive to do with my strong hand.

[HCM]

I'm new here, so try not to roast me too much.

Here's the background to my question. A few years ago, I started trying to get better at shooting as opposed to just acquiring firearms. At that point, I started shooting one centerfire handgun (an HK P30) about 95 percent of the time that I shot centerfire instead of switching between firearms. In the past year, I have been dry firing two to four times a week. Fairly recently, I bought Stay in the Fight by Kyle Lamb at the recommendation of a friend who has extensive experience with firearms, including several tours of duty.

Here's where the trouble starts. Lamb recommends a thumbs-forward grip and has some great illustrations to accompany just what he means. Given that Lamb has more experience with firearms in a month of his life than I will have in the entire course of mine, I changed my grip from a support-hand-thumb-over-trigger-hand-thumb grip to the thumbs-forward grip. I have been practicing with it for a few weeks.

Now, I have not had a chance to go to the range with live ammunition yet to see what I think of the thumbs-forward grip. However, in practice with Snap Caps, I find it quite uncomfortable compared to the way that I usually grip my P30. I see a couple of ways of viewing my experience so far:

1. I just need more time to acclimate myself to the new grip. Thus far, I have spent about two hours with the thumbs-forward grip in the basement. Once I practice more extensively with it, I'll be a better shooter.

2. That grip just does not work for me, and rather than try and completely change my grip, I ought to continue with what seems to be working for me and work on building other skills from there.

I should probably specify that I am not interested in competition shooting or shooting pretty touching groups. I'm interested in reasonable accuracy at reasonable speed for self-defense purposes (my current benchmark that I use to measure my progress is the FBI qualification test). Obviously, those terms are open to interpretation, but that's a rough description of why I am shooting handguns.

So, any thoughts? Is the thumbs-forward grip essential to becoming a competent defensive shooter? Or should I focus my time and energy elsewhere?

Thank you in advance.

1.

For many years my agency gave the option of the old locked down thumb revolver grip or the thumbs forward grip. We transitioned to only teaching the thumbs forward and we have transitioned many shooters to the thumbs forward. Based on going through this with multiple individuals it will take a few weeks or more before it feels "natural."

The thumbs forward grip provides superior performance. Pure shooting performance (accuracy and speed) is performance regardless of your purpose.

A few points that will help:

The thumbs forward grip is not really about the thumbs. In fact the thumb is the weakest part of the grip and the less you use your thumbs the better. Pressing down with the thumbs can actually push rounds off target. Rather, one of the primary advantages of the thumbs forward grip is the pronation of the support hand wrist which controls recoil via body structure rather than strength.

The easiest way I have seen to facilitate initial support hand pronation is to prep the support hand by pointing the support hand thumb at the target.

it should look something like this before the support hand wraps around and "clamps" the firing hand.



Completed grip should look something like this:



When you start putting this into practice as part of a presentation from the holster etc I favor the "Judy Chop" and Rotate method described here by Mike Seeklander:



It's worth noting the index point for the index finger of the support hand is the middle finger of the firing hand, not the underside of the trigger guard. Due to proprioception (self awareness of body position) it is much easier for one of your hands to find your other hand than to find something that is not part of your body, especially when the various parts are moving.

[Wondering Beard]

I'm new here, so try not to roast me too much.

Here's the background to my question. A few years ago, I started trying to get better at shooting as opposed to just acquiring firearms. At that point, I started shooting one centerfire handgun (an HK P30) about 95 percent of the time that I shot centerfire instead of switching between firearms. In the past year, I have been dry firing two to four times a week. Fairly recently, I bought Stay in the Fight by Kyle Lamb at the recommendation of a friend who has extensive experience with firearms, including several tours of duty.

Here's where the trouble starts. Lamb recommends a thumbs-forward grip and has some great illustrations to accompany just what he means. Given that Lamb has more experience with firearms in a month of his life than I will have in the entire course of mine, I changed my grip from a support-hand-thumb-over-trigger-hand-thumb grip to the thumbs-forward grip. I have been practicing with it for a few weeks.

Now, I have not had a chance to go to the range with live ammunition yet to see what I think of the thumbs-forward grip. However, in practice with Snap Caps, I find it quite uncomfortable compared to the way that I usually grip my P30. I see a couple of ways of viewing my experience so far:

1. I just need more time to acclimate myself to the new grip. Thus far, I have spent about two hours with the thumbs-forward grip in the basement. Once I practice more extensively with it, I'll be a better shooter.

2. That grip just does not work for me, and rather than try and completely change my grip, I ought to continue with what seems to be working for me and work on building other skills from there.

I should probably specify that I am not interested in competition shooting or shooting pretty touching groups. I'm interested in reasonable accuracy at reasonable speed for self-defense purposes (my current benchmark that I use to measure my progress is the FBI qualification test). Obviously, those terms are open to interpretation, but that's a rough description of why I am shooting handguns.

So, any thoughts? Is the thumbs-forward grip essential to becoming a competent defensive shooter? Or should I focus my time and energy elsewhere?

Thank you in advance.

In support of what @HCM has posted here are two videos from Ernest Langdon (an extremely well regarded and experienced instructor here). I'll add a couple of things about the P30 afterwards.






This one is longer and more complete. The part of about grip really start at about 9:50 but it's worth watching the whole thing.




About the P30 (I own, like and shoot one), the grip, which feels so ergonomic, is actually not the best for wringing out the most capability out of a gun. What makes it feel so great is the slight oval shape it has; that shape gives it a bit less area to press the palm of your support hand on the open side and thus a little less sense of control when you start speeding up your shots. It needs to be pressed more strongly, IMO, than say a gun with more of a 2x4 type of grip like a Glock. It's also a bit more vertical, which can make pre-loading your wrist, the way the videos show you, a little different but the principle remains the same. Follow the instructions and concepts of the videos, do take a good class with a top flight instructor when you can and the difficulties you are having will soon go away.

P.S.: I was a long time high thumbs weaver shooter and converted to the new stance and my control of the gun, after putting in the work, became so much better.

[HCM]

In support of what @HCM has posted here are two videos from Ernest Langdon (an extremely well regarded and experienced instructor here). I'll add a couple of things about the P30 afterwards.






This one is longer and more complete. The part of about grip really start at about 9:50 but it's worth watching the whole thing.




About the P30 (I own, like and shoot one), the grip, which feels so ergonomic, is actually not the best for wringing out the most capability out of a gun. What makes it feel so great is the slight oval shape it has; that shape gives it a bit less area to press the palm of your support hand on the open side and thus a little less sense of control when you start speeding up your shots. It needs to be pressed more strongly, IMO, than say a gun with more of a 2x4 type of grip like a Glock. It's also a bit more vertical, which can make pre-loading your wrist, the way the videos show you, a little different but the principle remains the same. Follow the instructions and concepts of the videos, do take a good class with a top flight instructor when you can and the difficulties you are having will soon go away.

P.S.: I was a long time high thumbs weaver shooter and converted to the new stance and my control of the gun, after putting in the work, became so much better.

I agree with you re: grip shape. Oval grips like the M&P or the various HK "spider web" grips "feel" great but as PF Founder TLG said "feelings lie."

http://pistol-training.com/archives/5108

The concept of "feelings lie" is directly applicable to the OP's question re: Thumbs forward grip.

Getting back to grip profile, when firing more than one shot under time pressure, I've found guns with flat sided grips track better and allow better performance. Examples include Glocks, 1911s, Beretta 92, SIG P320s with the X style grips, the HK USPC, P2000, HK45C etc

[P30]

Oval grips like the M&P or the various HK "spider web" grips "feel" great but as PF Founder TLG said "feelings lie."

On the other hand, Todd shot more than 90,000 rounds with the P30. He published no pistol test with more rounds fired. And what was his best FAST time with the P30? I don't have the number at hand but I remember, it was outstanding. So I don't think, he found the P30 too shabby. (At least his articles about it had a very positive influence on me buying mine.)

I don't say, the P30 is the best pistol for fast shooting. It is not. But it is certainly not the bottleneck for great shooting for most persons. For most persons, the bottleneck is the person's lack of training.

PS:

Todd wrote:
pistol-training.com/archives/2668:

The P30 has helped me set so many personal records on various shooting drills that I could not even begin to count, including a 4.08 on the F.A.S.T. just two weeks ago.

[HCM]

On the other hand, Todd shot more than 90.000 rounds with the P30. He published no pistol test with more rounds fired. And what was his best FAST time with the P30? I don't have the number at hand but I remember, it was outstanding. So I don't think, he found the P30 too shabby. (At least his articles about it had a very positive influence on me buying mine.)

Nothing is perfect and IMHO, a P30, VP9 or HK 45 with the original P2000 style grip found on the HK45C would be a better gun.

I've shot P30s, VP9s, M&P etc. For me the timer and target don't lie. The difference isn't huge, but it is measurable.

ToddG's results may, or may not translate to "normal" people's results. He was a gifted athlete before he ever got into shooting and put in a level of work most people do not. Like shooting 90,000 rounds. As the Russians say, quantity has a quality all it's own.

The P30's other attributes may have outweighed the negatives of the grip shape.

[Chewbacca10]

Thanks for the replies, all.

The videos were quite helpful. I know now that I didn't have my support-hand wrist straight enough. The main issue that I have remaining is that the right-hand side of thumb on my firing hand seems to be touching the slide release lever slightly. I don't know what that's going to do under recoil, but it may be a little while before I can get to the range. Is the position of that thumb a concern?

So, from what I am gathering, the thumbs-forward position seems to be the dominant position. However, it seems as though there are at least some authorities on the topic who are a little less rigid on that. Case in point:



At any rate, I'll continue working on the thumbs-forward grip and see how it feels after a few weeks.