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Thread: Things to think about besides triggers, sights, and gear.

  1. #1

    Things to think about besides triggers, sights, and gear.

    This is an incredibly valuable video. Watch ALL of it and listen to what this guy says.

    ShivWorks ECQC Alumni will recognize this as textbook content streamed together in the Sunday Three Person Full Spectrum Evolution.

    VCAST alumni will recognize elements of the Saturday evening evolution.

    AMIS Alumni will recognize their training from the "Don't Shoot Yet" module on Sunday.


    Things to consider:

    -The importance of properly Managing Unknown Contacts.

    -An assault in The Triangle of the vehicle and an inability to translate BJJ in a novel environment with specific contextualization.

    -In-Fight Weapons Access.

    -A "Don't Shoot Yet" situation that requires managing distance and potential with verbalization, all while "riding the brakes".

    -A benign third party filming the altercation that is present but not part of the problem but still dividing attention.

    -Ambiguity and Uncertainty.

    -Interdisciplinary/Multi-Modal Problem Solving.


    This is a civilian "Defensive Gun Use" that will not be recorded in any data base because there wasn't an arrest and there wasn't an injury severe enough to warrant medical attention.
    How many DGUs are there like this that civilians manage that go unrecorded? This is the problem with basing one's curriculum strictly on "data" where shots are fired, arrests are made, or injuries are recorded. There's an entire range of problems that exist that have no evidence other than anecdotally like this incident.

    This is why an instructor's "experience" most assuredly IS vital and not an "appeal to authority".

    I know what I know because I've lived it and I'm not going to have a debate with you because you have a forty hour instructor certification under someone I have coffee with once a year at a conference.

    I will continue to evolve ShivWorks Curriculum and POIs based on my own experiences, those of the Alumni, and what I have observed in the lab over the past 23 years.

    That's what you're paying for. My lens.




  2. #2
    Wag more, Bark less RJ's Avatar
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    @SouthNarc thanks for this.

    I am hoping to be selected for your class at TacCon '21. In any event, at some point in the next 6-24 months, you are going to be saddled with me as a 62 year old student in an ECQC class. I have simply got to take this.

    Rich
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught.
    — J. C. Watts

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by RJ View Post
    @SouthNarc thanks for this.

    I am hoping to be selected for your class at TacCon '21. In any event, at some point in the next 6-24 months, you are going to be saddled with me as a 62 year old student in an ECQC class. I have simply got to take this.

    Rich
    Well since you're asking early I'll get you in Rich. Just flag me at Tac Con and remind of this post.

  4. #4
    Highly valuable video. Beyond giving his side of the experience, he also seems like exactly the type of person the gun community so desperately needs - responsible, well-spoken, empathetic and probably well-trained.

    Thanks for sharing.

  5. #5
    Wag more, Bark less RJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    Well since you're asking early I'll get you in Rich. Just flag me at Tac Con and remind of this post.
    Thank you sir, but I'll take my chances in the lottery like everyone else. Either way, I will be glad to say hi at TacCon if it works out.

    On the video, wow, what an eye opener. And literally taking place on the guy's doorstep, too. The "I lost my holster in the scuffle" angle was interesting. I've never pondered what I would do, if I needed to reholster, and mine wasn't on me. I use either a JMCK IWB3 strong side, or now that I've lost 25 lbs recently (#humblebrag), a Dark Star Gear Hitchiker worn AIWB, both with PTD loops. The DSG Koala I just ordered has a PTD loop as well.

    But yeah, seems like the guy had his priorities straight: Mindset, Skillset, Toolset, as that @Paul Sharp guy says.
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught.
    — J. C. Watts

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by RJ View Post
    The "I lost my holster in the scuffle" angle was interesting. I've never pondered what I would do, if I needed to reholster, and mine wasn't on me. I use either a JMCK IWB3 strong side, or now that I've lost 25 lbs recently (#humblebrag), a Dark Star Gear Hitchiker worn AIWB, both with PTD loops. The DSG Koala I just ordered has a PTD loop as well.
    Great point and one I didn't note in my original post. This is actually quite common in the aforementioned three person evolution on Sunday in ECQC. Guy gets into a dust up, draws the weapon, can't quite get the shot, loses the holster, and then range opens back up into non-kinetic interaction. Now we're talking with a gun in hand and the place we normally stow it is absent.

    Happens quite frequently with holsters that have shitty plastic clips.

  7. #7
    Moderator BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    I'd add two things:

    1) Continuously set expectations for onlookers, even if you don't think there are any onlookers. Many crimes have more "ear witnesses" then eye witnesses, and that was true even before everyone was a like-hungry camera wielder. "He attacked me, stay back! He might be armed! Call the police!" on repeat helps set expectations and primes witnesses to be on your side of the narrative.

    2) Call the police. Somebody is going to. Maybe the other guy Whoever talks first becomes the default narrative. The default narrative must then be overturned, which is harder then simply establishing the default narrative.
    Important rule change regarding political discussion here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....58#post1151858

    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Maybe with talented students I would lube up with baby oil and then go at it.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    I'd add two things:

    1) Continuously set expectations for onlookers, even if you don't think there are any onlookers. Many crimes have more "ear witnesses" then eye witnesses, and that was true even before everyone was a like-hungry camera wielder. "He attacked me, stay back! He might be armed! Call the police!" on repeat helps set expectations and primes witnesses to be on your side of the narrative.

    2) Call the police. Somebody is going to. Maybe the other guy Whoever talks first becomes the default narrative. The default narrative must then be overturned, which is harder then simply establishing the default narrative.

    Agreed.👍🏽

  9. #9
    I’d like to ask a few leading questions to milk more out of you and BBI. The answers might understandably be, “take my classes and find out”.

    1. Overall in your opinion, how did he (the victim) handle the situation? He appears to be doing a lot of things right.
    2. If the attacker decided to rush him open-handed, would he have been justified in shooting him?
    3. Was there a point in time where it would have been more appropriate to reholster his gun (assuming his holster didn’t come out) and reach for something less-lethal rather than continuing to hold him at gunpoint?

  10. #10
    Member
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    Couple things that stuck out to me:

    1. Training: He said he had 4 months of training martial arts. In BJJ, that's not a lot of time. You can train for 4 months and still get your ass whipped by a guy who is bigger and stronger. A fight is a "come as you are" event. The skills you have and the equipment you have should be enough to get you through it, so DON'T DELAY GETTING SKILLED. Would you rather be a guy with 4 months or BJJ, or 4 years of BJJ. I know what I'd prefer.

    2. He kept eyes on the guy. Managed distance too though. That is extremely smart. The dude ducking behind the car and picking at his waist are solid cues to pick up on. If he wasn't trained in some sort of higher level defensive firearms class I'd be surprised. Also the solid trigger finger placement. Smart.

    3. Lost the holster in the scuffle. So even if he did not draw and did engage the dude with his BJJ, there's the chance that his gun pops free...then it's fight over a gun. Risky.

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