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Thread: My kingdom for a Korth (or Manurhin)?

  1. #31
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Paging @zeleny.

    This seems like your kind of thread.
    .
    -----------------------------------------
    Not another dime.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave T View Post
    I'm sorry gentleman but I just can't see $3K+ for a DA revolver that's going to be a shooter. For around $1K I can buy a pre-lock S&W and there are still a few excellent revolver smiths who can make it as slick as I want it to be if I'm willing to pay for it. I'll still be under the Krth/Manurhin's $3K.

    Dave
    Used, European police turn in MR73’s show up for sale for triple digits from time to time. This guy sent one to Dave Laubert for some tweaking....
    https://youtu.be/T4CLb6IY-MQ

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    Attachment 65845

    They’re pretty impressively made and sooooo smooth.
    It’s fun for the black sheep of the Korth family.

    9mm does pretty decently out of short barrel revolvers.
    I tried in vain to get one of those 9mm Korths. How did you manage to score one?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    Paging @zeleny.

    This seems like your kind of thread.
    To hear is to obey.

    The Manurhin MR73 action is a development of the S&W Hand Ejector relentlessly rationalized in the true Cartesian tradition. Like the SIG P210, the Manurhin MR73 was designed and built for an administrative market that formally required extreme precision and durability orders of magnitude greater than that expected from and built into contemporaneous U.S. police sidearms. Throughout their history, Smith & Wesson and Colt never had an economic incentive to forge their gun parts out of tool steel. It was far more cost effective to machine and sinter softer materials, replacing the products under warranty in the rare instances of their being put to hard use. That was not an option for Manurhin in making deliveries to GIGN and SIG, to KTA. Hence the unexcelled durability and precision of their military and constabulary service handguns, combined with a more or less utilitarian finish in most of their variants.

    The short action of the MR73 reduces lock time for improved accuracy in single and double action. Owing to its travel and tensioning on rollers, the rebound slide is much more supple on the French revolver, ensuring a linear double action trigger pull. The MR73 allows for much easier and more flexible mainspring and rebound spring tuning, easily switchable between the minimal tension ensuring reliable rebounding of the trigger in cycling the action, and a highly tensioned setting suitable for a “live trigger” double action rapid fire technique. The cylinder stop is much wider and stronger on the MR73, limiting the peening of the cylinder notches in rapid double action cycling. Lastly, the yoke pivot configuration eliminates the likelihood of opening up its support in the frame by swinging the cylinder open and closed.

    Most importantly, the dimensions of the MR73 frame represent an ideal midpoint compromise between the .38 caliber sizing insufficient to contain prolonged firing of full-bore Magnum loads, and the .41 caliber sizing that unnecessarily weighs down the revolver frame and cylinder. The resulting sixgun remains unexcelled as a sidearm for serious social work.

    Made between 1964 and 2008, Ratzeburg Korth revolver actions were built like S&W turned inside out. Their frames and cylinders are sized similarly to Manurhin. The cylinder rotates righteously clockwise, Colt-like. The ejector rod locks on by sliding its cylindrical head into a cylindrical penal, rather than by being latched on its concave head. The telescoping mainspring assembly operates via a piston sliding inside another cylinder, Schmeisser SMG-like. The crane, its English nomenclature and function another nod to Colt, likewise limits the forward cylinder travel by its collar supporting the neck of the cylinder. Korth’s barrel has been tensioned against its shroud since long before S&W took that cue from Dan Wesson. One place where the design quite literally falls short is its less than full ejector stroke; the ensuing tendency to retain the empty shells at the mouth is somewhat mitigated by the exceptionally smooth, roller burnished inner surfaces of the cylinder chambers. The Korth is easy enough to work, but the need never seems to arise. As with the MR73, the only part subject to wear on it is the forcing cone that erodes from firing Magnum ammunition. In principle, the shrouded barrel of the Korth should be relatively inexpensive and easy to replace. In practice, spare parts are unobtainable stateside, and hard to get in Germany. The MR73 seems to resist this erosion a little better. The only part liable to break on it is the floating firing pin.

    Starting with the 41xxx revolver series and autopistol prototypes first shown in 2012 and 2013, Korth Lollar continued making revolvers of the original Ratzeburg design. They changed minor features by mounting the rear sight with a transverse pin in the top strap of the frame rather than longitudinal wedging into a cutout in the top rear of the barrel shroud, and adding an external adjustment to the mainspring preload. (A tendency for weak ignition remains the Achilles heel of all Korth revolver designs.) Their 2014 National Standard design, as currently imported by Nighthawk, has moved closer to S&W. The cylinder now rotates “the wrong way”, counter-clockwise to bear outward against its latches, rather than clockwise, into the frame window. Its latch has been moved from the back to the left side, S&W-style. In a practical improvement, its yoke pivot has been moved outboards to allow more clearance for loading, and its bolt notches have been shifted away from the chambers, thickening and presumably strengthening their walls. The new revolvers are made from different materials, CNC machined cold-rolled billet rather than hand-ground hammer forgings. Lastly, they differ in construction, having been designed to minimize hand-fitting and optimize drop-in assembly. The ejector rod still falls short of a full stroke. The grip frame has been standardized to the dimension of the S&W K- and L-frames, though the piston mainspring gets in the way of the grip screw on most S&W grip designs.

    To sum up, if you want the best revolver ever made for social work, get an MR73. If you want the finest revolver for sport shooting, get a Korth.

    More details can be found on my gun blog.
    Michael@massmeans.com | Zeleny@post.harvard.edu | westcoastguns@gmail.com | larvatus prodeo @ livejournal | +1-323-363-1860 | “If at first you don’t succeed, keep on sucking till you do succeed.” — Curly Howard, 1936 | “All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.” — Samuel Beckett, 1984

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by zeleny View Post
    To hear is to obey.

    The Manurhin MR73 action is a development of the S&W Hand Ejector relentlessly rationalized in the true Cartesian tradition. Like the SIG P210, the Manurhin MR73 was designed and built for an administrative market that formally required extreme precision and durability orders of magnitude greater than that expected from and built into contemporaneous U.S. police sidearms. Throughout their history, Smith & Wesson and Colt never had an economic incentive to forge their gun parts out of tool steel. It was far more cost effective to machine and sinter softer materials, replacing the products under warranty in the rare instances of their being put to hard use. That was not an option for Manurhin in making deliveries to GIGN and SIG, to KTA. Hence the unexcelled durability and precision of their military and constabulary service handguns, combined with a more or less utilitarian finish in most of their variants.

    The short action of the MR73 reduces lock time for improved accuracy in single and double action. Owing to its travel and tensioning on rollers, the rebound slide is much more supple on the French revolver, ensuring a linear double action trigger pull. The MR73 allows for much easier and more flexible mainspring and rebound spring tuning, easily switchable between the minimal tension ensuring reliable rebounding of the trigger in cycling the action, and a highly tensioned setting suitable for a “live trigger” double action rapid fire technique. The cylinder stop is much wider and stronger on the MR73, limiting the peening of the cylinder notches in rapid double action cycling. Lastly, the yoke pivot configuration eliminates the likelihood of opening up its support in the frame by swinging the cylinder open and closed.

    Most importantly, the dimensions of the MR73 frame represent an ideal midpoint compromise between the .38 caliber sizing insufficient to contain prolonged firing of full-bore Magnum loads, and the .41 caliber sizing that unnecessarily weighs down the revolver frame and cylinder. The resulting sixgun remains unexcelled as a sidearm for serious social work.

    Made between 1964 and 2008, Ratzeburg Korth revolver actions were built like S&W turned inside out. Their frames and cylinders are sized similarly to Manurhin. The cylinder rotates righteously clockwise, Colt-like. The ejector rod locks on by sliding its cylindrical head into a cylindrical penal, rather than by being latched on its concave head. The telescoping mainspring assembly operates via a piston sliding inside another cylinder, Schmeisser SMG-like. The crane, its English nomenclature and function another nod to Colt, likewise limits the forward cylinder travel by its collar supporting the neck of the cylinder. Korth’s barrel has been tensioned against its shroud since long before S&W took that cue from Dan Wesson. One place where the design quite literally falls short is its less than full ejector stroke; the ensuing tendency to retain the empty shells at the mouth is somewhat mitigated by the exceptionally smooth, roller burnished inner surfaces of the cylinder chambers. The Korth is easy enough to work, but the need never seems to arise. As with the MR73, the only part subject to wear on it is the forcing cone that erodes from firing Magnum ammunition. In principle, the shrouded barrel of the Korth should be relatively inexpensive and easy to replace. In practice, spare parts are unobtainable stateside, and hard to get in Germany. The MR73 seems to resist this erosion a little better. The only part liable to break on it is the floating firing pin.

    Starting with the 41xxx revolver series and autopistol prototypes first shown in 2012 and 2013, Korth Lollar continued making revolvers of the original Ratzeburg design. They changed minor features by mounting the rear sight with a transverse pin in the top strap of the frame rather than longitudinal wedging into a cutout in the top rear of the barrel shroud, and adding an external adjustment to the mainspring preload. (A tendency for weak ignition remains the Achilles heel of all Korth revolver designs.) Their 2014 National Standard design, as currently imported by Nighthawk, has moved closer to S&W. The cylinder now rotates “the wrong way”, counter-clockwise to bear outward against its latches, rather than clockwise, into the frame window. Its latch has been moved from the back to the left side, S&W-style. In a practical improvement, its yoke pivot has been moved outboards to allow more clearance for loading, and its bolt notches have been shifted away from the chambers, thickening and presumably strengthening their walls. The new revolvers are made from different materials, CNC machined cold-rolled billet rather than hand-ground hammer forgings. Lastly, they differ in construction, having been designed to minimize hand-fitting and optimize drop-in assembly. The ejector rod still falls short of a full stroke. The grip frame has been standardized to the dimension of the S&W K- and L-frames, though the piston mainspring gets in the way of the grip screw on most S&W grip designs.

    To sum up, if you want the best revolver ever made for social work, get an MR73. If you want the finest revolver for sport shooting, get a Korth.

    More details can be found on my gun blog.
    So, you don’t really know much about the MR73..... kidding!

    Your last blog post on the MR73 is dated back to 2017. What’s your opinion of current production MR73’s? As good as the original manufacture units?

    Thanks for the insight.

    Regards

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super77 View Post
    I tried in vain to get one of those 9mm Korths. How did you manage to score one?
    About two years ago, there were a bunch available on Gunbroker for pretty decent prices. Either NIB or very lightly used.

    I bought one and thought about buying a second one, but I like 7 and 8 shot carry revolvers if they’re going to be that long in the grip. Super fun gun though.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave T View Post
    I'm sorry gentleman but I just can't see $3K+ for a DA revolver that's going to be a shooter. For around $1K I can buy a pre-lock S&W and there are still a few excellent revolver smiths who can make it as slick as I want it to be if I'm willing to pay for it. I'll still be under the Krth/Manurhin's $3K.

    Dave
    Have a look at an S&W rebound slide vs. that of a MR73. The S&W relies on a metal on metal contact, the Manurhin moves on rollers. No matter what you pay a gunsmith, no amount of stoning and polishing available on this planet will make the S&W rebound slide as slick as that of a Manurhin. Now consider that just about every component that effects strength, accuracy, reliability and trigger feel in the Manurhin is an improved version of what you find in an S&W.

    If an S&W is all you want, that's great. For the vast majority of people a Manurhin is not worth it. Heck, for the vast majority of people a pre lock S&W is not worth it. Each to his own. But if you are alluding an S&W can be made to match an MR73, you are mistaken. It's simply not possible.
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  8. #38
    I Demand Pie Lex Luthier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeleny View Post
    To hear is to obey.

    The Manurhin MR73 action is a development of the S&W Hand Ejector relentlessly rationalized in the true Cartesian tradition. <snip>

    To sum up, if you want the best revolver ever made for social work, get an MR73. If you want the finest revolver for sport shooting, get a Korth.

    More details can be found on my gun blog.
    That is about the most concise summing up I've yet read. Thank you, and please accept the golf clap I am offering...
    "If I ever needed to hunt in a tuxedo, then this would be the rifle I'd take." - okie john

    "Not being able to govern events, I govern myself." - Michel De Montaigne

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pol View Post
    But if you are alluding an S&W can be made to match an MR73, you are mistaken.
    Pol,

    I specifically said, "...there are still a few excellent revolver smiths who can make it as slick as I want it to be..." I did not say anything about matching the object of your affections.

    Dave

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave T View Post

    ... the object of your affections.
    FLMAO!

    Bless your heart Dave.

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