Dog training best practices

[UNM1136]

I will never train another dog without a prong collar and an E-collar. My 19 pound pound puppy got a prong collar and my vet thanked me for loving my dog enough to treat her like a dog and keep her under control.

I highly recommend Michael Ellis videos, available through leerburg. The Leash Pressure video is particularly useful. Our Schutzhund/ring sport club training director and State Canine Master Instructor/SME recommends the videos highly.

The leash pressure video, when used in conjunction with "the power of training your dogs with food" and "the power of playing tug with your dog" teaches your dog that the leash/slip collar/prong collar are not just for corrections, but can be used to let the dog know that you are trying to communicate with it. The e-collar videos are also pretty good.

Ellis is like a 90-95% positive trainer, with corrections for willful disobedience.

pat

[Borderland]

I've always used a shock collar to reinforce after we get associated with voice and whistle commands. That is, the dog knows what the voice and whistle command means and was trained without it. There are many ways to do that. I used to wear a whistle anytime the dog was with me, which was most of the time on my property, hunting, or hiking. Leashes are great but working dogs need the ability to do the things they are bred to do off leash and they need to be trained to your commands without exception. Voice commands are OK until your dog gets out of range of your voice which hunting and herding dogs frequently do. Anytime my dog was off leash she had her shock collar on. Once a dog gets used to being corrected a few times with the collar it generally isn't needed to reinforce whistle or voice commands.

One of the very first things I learned from professional trainers is that there is absolutely no point in correcting a dog for any behavior that the dog doesn't associate with as incorrect. This may take some time to instill in the dog by voice communication. I'm a firm believer in the philosophy that dogs want to do what you want them to do. They just need to know what that is and some need longer than others to figure it out.

There's always going to be the test of wills with pups as they grow older. They will always learn who's in charge if you take the time to train them. In my opinion there is no such thing as a bad dog, just owners who shouldn't have dogs.

[Bergeron]

I'm just here to be another voice of support in training for small dogs.

I had a daschund/collie mutt (lost her in the break-up) as puppy with a past girlfriend. We did biweekly training classes, starting as soon as possible. I think that dog's personality wasn't ever going to be neurotic, but it it was nice to be able to go and do things with her, and take her places, and have people over and have her be well-behaved. We didn't try anything like competitive obedience, I just wanted a well-adjusted pet, and it was a combination of verbal and non-verbal commands rewarded with hot food-based treats. When we started, we had the typical sort of bagged dog treats, but were advised to get the "higher value" hot dog/cheese/chicken, which did make a difference.

[Borderland]

Yeah, that is what I've been thinking, problem is that's money I want to spend on something else.

It's funny, we took an hour walk this morning, and as usual he behaved perfectly, stayed right by me, sat whenever I stopped, etc. And he ignored - didn't pull me off course - all other animals. But if he gets loose outside, katy bar the doors. I'm worried it will happen at night when I cant see where he goes.

Oh, well, I have Cabella's bucks, any suggestions as to brand?

My hunting buddies and I used Tri-tronics to train and hunt but I think they're Garmin now. So if they still make the same quality collars that would be my recommendation.

E-collars have a recall tone that isn't a corrective setting (no shock, just tone). Once the dog gets trained to the recall tone that's their command to come in. Like all other commands, they should know what they're supposed to do. Positive reinforcement, however you want to do that, will insure that very little correction will be needed when a command is disobeyed. The good e-collars have a range far beyond what most people will ever need. That's one thing to look at when buying an e-collar.

E-collars aren't a magic training wand though. The same amount of time has to be devoted to training. For me they just extended the range of my control when I hunted. Most people can have well trained dogs without them. Working dogs can sometimes be very determined and strong willed. Some are not easily trained. All I've ever trained was hunting dogs so my experience is limited there.

[Borderland]

I started with SAR dogs in the late 80s, and the alpha rollover was quite popular at that time. One of the astute trainers that we had a seminar from pointed out that the "show them who's alpha" techniques worked most of the time for most of the dogs because few of the dogs actually considered themselves to be the alpha. When a poorly prepared handler tried such a technique with a dog that actually thought Fido was the alpha, bad things were likely to happen. Just be heads up if you go that route.

I have an Alpha bitch. They take training to a whole new level. It's more of a mutual endeavor where everyone has to agree on the agenda. The movie Cool Hand Luke comes to mind.

[UNM1136]

One of my texts on the subject (it does not endorse alpha rolling) mentions how poorly the whole alpha argument relates to reality. We are not competing for food, or breeding rights, or anything else that causes dogs to rank up in a pack environment in nature. Working with a human is has no parallel in nature, and thus cannot be instictive. The author makes the case that the handler needs to be something beyond the alpha. He is big on the relationship between the dog and the handler, and the dog learning that he needs to do what he is told to be rewarded, or refuse to do what he is told and be corrected. Instead for years I have thought of "ranky" dogs as spoiled, hard willed delinquents that are looking for any way to have their way in a relationship. They push boundries, looking for what behaviors will get them what they want. They also have limited means of influencing the world around them. When they snap at you and you yank your hand back, they are figuring out how to make you move, to respond to them. I have known ranky dogs before, but no longer try to classify them as "alpha" or "beta", and instead approach them as individuals of varying degrees of hardness.

Like Dog Guy mentioned, trying to prove you are the alpha kinda puts you on their level, and a motivated dog can eat your lunch. Putting the dog up, or a lightning bolt type correction (figuratively, a correction that successfully interrupts the behavior) can be far more effective than trying to compete for the "top dog" position.

Dogs repeat behaviors that get them success.

Just some thoughts before bed.

pat

Edited to add: http://siriusdog.com/social-behavior...hutzhund-pack/

Same author, almost word for word from his book.

[757_Magnum]

I'm a recent convert to using a prong collar, and I now suggest them to anyone who's responsible and serious about raising a dog well. A friend of mine who had a very well trained Cane Corso suggested prong collars a while back, but I thought they were cruel and declined at the time. I think they're like AR-15s. They seem scary and unnecessary to the misinformed and uninitiated, and any misuse by a bad owner is all too easy to be portrayed as an evil object. My female Doberman is relatively well behaved, but she pulls on our walks or when she's super excited like at a brewery. I used to have her on a leather Martingale style due to her thick neck and skinny head. She would respond when I stopped walking when she pulled, but I needed to correct her every minute or so. Between that and the fact that she would sometimes pull so hard that she would often choke herself, I started researching prong collars on several Doberman forums. I learned that many users either overcorrect, leave it on the dog 24/7, and/or they don't size it correctly. I was still a bit hesitant and didn't want to be cruel to my baby girl, so when the Herm Sprenger collar came in, I put it on myself and gave the leash a good tug . Seriously, though... I felt the squeeze and the prongs, but no pain. The key is wearing it correctly, snug and high on the neck just under the head, and using just a firm snapping motion with just your wrist. I also chose the smaller prongs that provide more feedback to the dog with less corrective force. Most owners that I've seen use huge prongs, leave them loose on the dog's lower neck, and yank the shit out of them. Now she barely pulls, and she can barely contain her excitement when she hears the clink of the collar. I also highly suggest an attachment that allows a secondary backup collar to be attached in case the collar releases. This was learned the hard way when mine popped loose at a highway rest area and she happily played keep away with cars zooming by.

TL;DR (I'm not an expert, but this is from my research and what worked for me)
- only buy a Herm Sprenger
- get a backup collar attachment
- worn snug high up on the neck just behind the ears, shouldn't be sliding down during walks
- small corrective snaps with just the wrist, not your whole arm/body
- only for training and/or taking the dog out, not for 24/7 wear
- smaller link sizes provide more corrective feedback with less force

[60Driver]

I will second the importance of back up collar with a prong!

Definitely not an expert working dogs or with working dogs. Only amateur trained my last two labs to JH and am learning new lessons with our current Vizsla.

Odin our mark 1 mod 1 Vizsla out of Field Trial lines but a "Soft" dog for his lines according to his breeder has not once, or twice, but three times popped his correctly adjusted sprenger prong. Vizslas are not big but they are solid muscle and have HIGH drive when on a scent. Crying wife chasing one of the fastest breeds on planet is not something I recommend.

I had no idea that Vizslas had multistage afterburners but they can BOOGIE. And then look sheepish and lovey when they realize that they blew into the next county. Great breed and we love him but Labs are WAY easier to train

If you use a prong, get a back collar up and use it!!!

[Borderland]

I will second the importance of back up collar with a prong!

Definitely not an expert working dogs or with working dogs. Only amateur trained my last two labs to JH and am learning new lessons with our current Vizsla.

Odin our mark 1 mod 1 Vizsla out of Field Trial lines but a "Soft" dog for his lines according to his breeder has not once, or twice, but three times popped his correctly adjusted sprenger prong. Vizslas are not big but they are solid muscle and have HIGH drive when on a scent. Crying wife chasing one of the fastest breeds on planet is not something I recommend.

I had no idea that Vizslas had multistage afterburners but they can BOOGIE. And then look sheepish and lovey when they realize that they blew into the next county. Great breed and we love him but Labs are WAY easier to train

If you use a prong, get a back collar up and use it!!!

A friend has a Vizsla. She's is in her 70's and I often wondered why she would buy a hunting breed as she doesn't hunt. I've seen Vizslas in hunt tests and they're rockets. She makes sure her dog gets plenty of exercise which in turn gives her plenty of exercise. Lots of working dogs get into homes where their owners don't exercise them. Breed popularity has doomed many good breeds in the US like the Cocker Spaniel. You can still find hunting lines of Cockers and Springers in the UK but they aren't cheap and breeders won't sell to just anyone. I had to fill out an app to buy my WPG and only after a phone interview did I get put on a wait list. I had to hunt test the dog for natural ability at 18 months as part of the purchase contract.