suggestions for focus on front sight

[JCN]

This is an interesting topic in itself. See Karl Rhen’s study, which suggests that new shooters may be better off with irons or lasers.

https://blog.krtraining.com/red-dot-study-key-points/

Another consideration, if a new shooter starts with a RDS, will learning irons be more difficult? Sort of like learning to snowboard before skiing?

Do we want to train shooters who cannot shoot a pistol without a RDS?

Yes, but the devil is in the details.

Aaron Cowan’s experience is different and suggests RDS is better for newer shooters.

https://1312bba5-e7e7-76e8-1fca-a01b...4a0c1370c2.pdf

So who is right? I believe it’s in the metrics and test design.

I think a big caveat is when new shooters insist on trying to find the dot when index would be good enough. That can lead to dismal test performances.

I believe that training with RDS gives better feedback (like an immediate Mantis X) with trigger press and index than irons to someone with bad eyesight or who isn’t really knowing what they should be looking at.

If you get good mechanics with presentation and trigger press, the sighting system is a minor difference. Shooting RDS helped my irons. Shooting irons didn’t help my RDS nearly as much as the reverse.

[JCN]

@Clusterfrack the longer term philosophical question is...

Does a 16 year old need to learn how to drive on a manual transmission so that they appreciate driving an automatic transmission? With electric cars and CVTs, manual transmission might really not be a commonly practiced option in the future.

(disclaimer, my last three daily drivers were manual transmission)

I rarely shoot rifles with irons. Probably less than 1/50th of my total rounds. I’d never insist a new shooter learn on rifle irons.

My wife, who doesn’t shoot but once a year... I had her requalify for her CCW with a G34 and a Romeo3Max. She smoked the random dude with the 1911 and laser, lol. He was depressed.

[Clusterfrack]

@Clusterfrack the longer term philosophical question is...

Does a 16 year old need to learn how to drive on a manual transmission so that they appreciate driving an automatic transmission? With electric cars and CVTs, manual transmission might really not be a commonly practiced option in the future.

(disclaimer, my last three daily drivers were manual transmission)

I rarely shoot rifles with irons. Probably less than 1/50th of my total rounds. I’d never insist a new shooter learn on rifle irons.

My wife, who doesn’t shoot but once a year... I had her requalify for her CCW with a G34 and a Romeo3Max. She smoked the random dude with the 1911 and laser, lol. He was depressed.

Great discussion! Let's not derail the OP's thread. Your comparison of irons vs. RDS to manual vs. automatic is logical. However, I disagree. Iron-sighted handguns will always be common, for a number of reasons.

[JCN]

Couple things about the KR methodology.

Anything over 1.5 seconds was scored as a zero.
They used an RMR (small window).
They only gave people 10 presentations to warm up.

I don’t think think that was a good test when shooters had more iron sight experience than red dot.
If they gave 3 seconds or had them start from sights on target, I’d think the differences would be more clear.

IMO from teaching a few novices, I used a frame mounted pic rail Glock with a humongous window RDS so it was very easy to find the dot. They did much better than trying to stare at the irons and improved faster.

Presentation takes practice. I’m talking mainly about the mechanics of trigger press and grip.

[Greg]

OP,

What kind of sights are you using? If they are 3 dot sights (which suck IMO ) maybe try a plain black rear sight with a front sight that grabs your attention .

[ViniVidivici]

OP, I prefer a high contrast front sight, it automatically gears me toward being focused on it.

I grew up in this pursuit when 3 dots were where it's at, white or tritium.

I now have evolved to using tritium only in the front sight.

Preferred arrangement is Ameriglo Bold orange square w/ tritium, stock style rear (Glock, in my case). Very much promotes front sight focus.

Same thing on another gun, red fiber optic front, stock rear, outstanding daylight and magic-hour performance.

[DDTSGM]

OP, here's my input:

First you need to know your vision status from the get go. I was extremely near-sighted, when I was younger I wore glasses/contacts to correct my vision and could get a great sight picture. In my late thirties I developed presbyopia and needed to wear bifocals. In my case since a significant portion of my duties involved firearms instruction, I had my eye doctor develop a shooting Rx and had dedicated shooting glasses made. At that point I also went to a fiber optic front with black rear sights on my personal pistols.

Of course the problem with dedicated shooting Rx solution was that for 'off the range' encounters I would be wearing my regular lenses - in my case I was still able to pretty much ace our qual course with my regular glasses so I felt comfortable with my 'off-the-range' abilities.

Mid forties I developed cataracts and had cataract surgery which corrected my far vision to roughly 20/20 far, my near vision became a big problem, I wasn't able to see the front sight good enough with my shooting Rx. I experimented and found that 2.0 magnification safety glasses gave em a good crisp sight picture but beyond 15 yards I was unable to see the target good enough for precision hits in the shooting games.

I foundered around quite a bit with different magnifications, until one day I shot a guy's M&P with fiber optics front and rear. I switched virtually all my pistols to fiber optics front and rear. I use green for both front and rear.

For action pistol I use sight combination that gives me more light around the front sight, generally a .105 front sight - this gives me the precision I need for that sport. For USPSA, I use a sight combination that doesn't give me as much light around the sight, generally a wider sight .115 or .125 - this is the setup I use for carry pistols.

The problem with this solution is that I don't use the same pistol for both games.

I need to also add that I use adjustable rear sights for my pistols if they are available.

Fiber optics with adjustable rears saved the day for my old eyes.

[RJ]

I have a few things you can try...

I forgot one more thing until I came back from the range today: If you wear bifocal corrective lenses, you can get your optometrist to make you a pair of single focal length glasses that focus at the front sight.

When I had these made, I stood in front of my eye doctor and reached out with my arm, and said I need it to focus "Right here", indicating my thumb. I now have a pair of glasses that I can use at the range if I need to have decent vision on my front sight to see what's going on. The sight is super clear. Before, I always had to tilt my head back to put the front sight in the focus region of my glasses. These special single focus lens glasses really do the trick for me, and they were less than $100 all in.

(I do need to remember to take them off before leaving the range. I went to lunch, stopped by the grocery store and then drove home, thinking, man, I need to get some new glasses. )

[CraigS]

I forgot one more thing until I came back from the range today: If you wear bifocal corrective lenses, you can get your optometrist to make you a pair of single focal length glasses that focus at the front sight.

When I had these made, I stood in front of my eye doctor and reached out with my arm, and said I need it to focus "Right here", indicating my thumb. I now have a pair of glasses that I can use at the range if I need to have decent vision on my front sight to see what's going on. The sight is super clear. Before, I always had to tilt my head back to put the front sight in the focus region of my glasses. These special single focus lens glasses really do the trick for me, and they were less than $100 all in.

(I do need to remember to take them off before leaving the range. I went to lunch, stopped by the grocery store and then drove home, thinking, man, I need to get some new glasses. )

Me too. I wear old style trifocals and that center grind is way too small an area for anything other than slow fire. Wife's company changed insurance one January after I had gotten new glasses in Oct. New company, coverage for new glasses every X months starts over. So I now have a pair of glasses w/ the entire left lens is focused at front sight distance and the right lens is normal tri focal. I also use FO front sights on maybe half our pistols and white dots on the rest. It's a good idea to test dot color too. For me green is the brightest but my wife sees red as the brightest.

[RJ]

Me too. I wear old style trifocals and that center grind is way too small an area for anything other than slow fire. Wife's company changed insurance one January after I had gotten new glasses in Oct. New company, coverage for new glasses every X months starts over. So I now have a pair of glasses w/ the entire left lens is focused at front sight distance and the right lens is normal tri focal. I also use FO front sights on maybe half our pistols and white dots on the rest. It's a good idea to test dot color too. For me green is the brightest but my wife sees red as the brightest.

I really liked the Green front on my P365XL. At some point I’m going to put a green FO rod in the Dawson I have on my game gun replacing the red it came with. I’d go the dot route but am not ready to spend the $ yet to equip my EDC and USPSA gun.

By chance do you know of any studies in cognition of green vs red sights? Particularly in aging males.