Another "why revolvers?" thread (culled side conversation)

[BehindBlueI's]

That's still slower than reloading a semi auto.

Everybody knows that and nobody is claiming otherwise (absent folks like Miculek who are so far past normal human capacity as to be irrelevant to this sort of discussion).

Equally, everyone knows it's slower to reload a small single stack pistol then it is a duty sized double stack. The question is, is that difference relevant? I suggest for someone carrying due to concerns of random violence, it isn't. Literally decades of NYPD SOP gunfight studies found speed of reload never once mattered in the outcome of their gunfights, and that was for a large police force carrying revolvers for much of the time. You can, of course, scour the nation and find a few examples over multiple decades were reload speed came into play. Even in those you can argue that tactics played in. A 1 second vs a 3 second reload just isn't that important in anything but the most remote outliers in real world defensive encounters.

In more stark terms, I've seen more dead people who shot themselves in the groin with a semi-auto then I've seen with an empty revolver in their hand.

[03RN]

From past experience shooting them, like I said. Not just j frames, though if I were to implement a revolver into my life that's likely what it would be, in the role of a NY Reload/BUG. If that isn't good enough for you at this point, you'll just have to be mad at me.



That's still slower than reloading a semi auto.



Now we're getting somewhere, at least you're admitting that comfort is a factor. I've found that holster selection is just as important if you want to carry a WML as it is for selecting the right holster for AIWB.



The cost of slide milling or the turn around time really isn't a concern, that's why I didn't buy MOS guns.

Im absolutely faster reloading autos as are most people.

Comfort is absolutely a consideration. I carry 16hrs a day. 8 hrs at work and the rest hiking, playing with my 2yo, etc. Reloading faster than I can reload a revolver isnt really a concern. How many gunfights have you been in where youve needed to do a reload faster than that? Like I said. Its faster than a SAW or a shotgun and Ive reloaded those while getting shot at. A huge part of fighting is movement and utilizing cover if available. Good tactics are more important.

Another factor is I like revolvers.

I have jmcustom aiwb holsters for tlr7s and a bawidaman gotham for my x300u. They're tolerable but noticable.

[FrankB]

In more stark terms, I've seen more dead people who shot themselves in the groin with a semi-auto then I've seen with an empty revolver in their hand.

Brilliant! I have all sorts of pistols, and ALWAYS feels confident with a revolver. I generally carry a j frame, and a speed strip. I do have a very compact cordura speedloader pouch, but rarely use it.

[willie]

I have observed that revolvers make little sense to those who first learned to shoot semi autos and have had no revolver experience. Also, back when revolvers ruled, the guy who had never learned to shoot double action would scoff at the idea that the technique could be used in shooting accurately. After I would demonstrate this, then they would listen. When I was in top form, I could, when shooting a 2 inch J frame, keep my shots within a 4 inch circle at 25 yards, and this was with standard 158 grain ammo. Of course I learned this skill with the help of expert instruction and honed it shooting free ammo. For the person who has demonstrated competence with the semi auto, there is no reason to take up revolver shooting other than experimenting.

My main career was teaching, and I demonstrated a skill set that allowed me to take students viewed as mean an stupid and then shape them up to perform academically and finish school. It was not easy. That said, give me an intelligent person who will listen, and I can teach him or her to shoot revolvers and pistols. I use the 7 yard line and prescribed dry fire practice in front of a mirror. Only then, after ample instruction and practice, do I increase distance. I keep sessions short. You too can learn the revolver.

[Lex Luthier]

Thanks
Its a 2.75" m66-8 with c&s rear u notch and a meprolight front.

I'm already a S & W revolver guy, having happily owned a model 66 for 31 years, but must say you are a very convincing evangelist for that model revolver and aftermarket sight combination.

[Casual Friday]

Everybody knows that and nobody is claiming otherwise (absent folks like Miculek who are so far past normal human capacity as to be irrelevant to this sort of discussion).

Equally, everyone knows it's slower to reload a small single stack pistol then it is a duty sized double stack. The question is, is that difference relevant? I suggest for someone carrying due to concerns of random violence, it isn't. Literally decades of NYPD SOP gunfight studies found speed of reload never once mattered in the outcome of their gunfights, and that was for a large police force carrying revolvers for much of the time.

Yes, a time when revolvers were the soup de jour and they were on par with what they were running up against in the street. That's not the case anymore. How many police departments are still issuing revolvers in 2020? Why the change to semi autos across the board? The last local cop here that carried a revolver retired in like 2005 and he was only allowed to continue carrying it because he threatened to sue the department and the city....and that's a small department in rural WA.

You can, of course, scour the nation and find a few examples over multiple decades were reload speed came into play. Even in those you can argue that tactics played in. A 1 second vs a 3 second reload just isn't that important in anything but the most remote outliers in real world defensive encounters.

No need to scour, the 86 Miami shootout comes to mind. As far as whether or not speed of reloading is a concern, you're right, most of the time when it did matter and a revolver was concerned there would not have been a need to reload if the guy had a 15-17 shot semi auto, so there's that.

In more stark terms, I've seen more dead people who shot themselves in the groin with a semi-auto then I've seen with an empty revolver in their hand.

I'm sure the vast number of semi autos in use today vs revolvers plays into that but I could be wrong.

I know I haven't changed your mind or anyone else's and I'm not trying to, but you haven't changed mine either. I've laid out the reasons why I won't use a revolver for primary carry use, not why you or anyone else shouldn't. I want easy buttons. I'm not going to start out with something that is harder, slower, sacrifices something I'd rather not sacrifice, or requires more work if I don't seen an advantage or benefit at the finish line. It's the same reason I dumped the LEM trigger. It would be the reason why I'd ditch red dots on pistols if I wasn't gaining something. If I couldn't see a tangible improvement I would not keep trying to hone my presentation in order to find the dot effortlessly.

I can find no niche where a revolver of any kind shape or size solves a problem for me that can't be solved more effortlessly with a semi auto.

[Half Moon]

While uncommon, I see revolvers often enough in the hands of basic students and range plinkers (whether their own or from the rental counter) that from a teaching perspective I'd better be able to adapt and accommodate. I think one of the worst things I could do would be to berate a new shooter over bringing a revolver, even if I am able to switch them to something else during the class, which isn't always able to happen.

On a somewhat related note, the SGC ran out of .38 Special again. I don't think it's just the hoarders and scalpers.

Attachment 65522



Please bear in mind that I presented these considerations as they were, not with the purpose of advocating for or dissuading against. That's not to say they're beyond dispute, but I think it is a bit much to treat them as not honest.

Directed at the links and not you - if not dishonest, then flawed and less than serious. Picking just one flaw of several: using a squib as an example, in a not ironic or funny way, is equivalent to, in a discussion of gasoline versus diesel engines, dwelling over the time I saw a diesel vehicle with a flat tire as an example of diesel failure modes. A lot of the linked two parter rings false in similar ways. There are lots of valid criticisms of revolvers and instead of addressing those we are presented with a flawed set of straw men.

[Casual Friday]

Im absolutely faster reloading autos as are most people.

Comfort is absolutely a consideration. I carry 16hrs a day. 8 hrs at work and the rest hiking, playing with my 2yo, etc. Reloading faster than I can reload a revolver isnt really a concern.

When my oldest was 3 or 4 and youngest was a baby, we were approached by two dope addicts outside of a Chuck E Cheese of all places. We were heading there for a birthday party. I had the diaper bag slung over my shoulder and the baby in my left arm, my wife had my oldest by the hand and carrying the present. If a stern BTFO hadn't got them moving another direction, a 5 or 6 shot revolver might have been enough but it might not. The 15+1 Glock 19 most likely would have been.

How many gunfights have you been in where youve needed to do a reload faster than that? Like I said. Its faster than a SAW or a shotgun and Ive reloaded those while getting shot at. A huge part of fighting is movement and utilizing cover if available. Good tactics are more important.

Gun fights in the military and civilian encounters aren't really in the same wheelhouse though. Over the spring and summer we've witnessed multiple vehicles get blocked in by traffic while swarms of angry leftists surrounded their vehicles. In these types of situations, which are not going away, utilizing cover may not be an option and I don't want low capacity and slower reloads when necessary.

Another factor is I like revolvers.

I do too, just not for defensive purposes when I have better options available to me.

I have jmcustom aiwb holsters for tlr7s and a bawidaman gotham for my x300u. They're tolerable but noticable.

Never heard of that second one, but Tony makes good holsters. I like the Phlster Floodlight for X300U, it's way more comfortable than I thought it would be just looking at pictures of it.

[TheNewbie]

I can find no niche where a revolver of any kind shape or size solves a problem for me that can't be solved more effortlessly with a semi auto.

That may be it, you cannot find a need for a revolver in your life, but others can find that need. The example I gave of my wife is but one of many.


I don't know how much time you have spent in foreign countries (it may be substantial, my experience is limited to Mexico and Canada), but I could see a revolver being useful in many undertrained places. Such as the police force of Mexico City. Especially since they will respond to calls in large numbers.


Up until a year ago I worked with a guy who carried a 329PD (a 20 something oz revolver) with fully house .44 magnum loads on duty. To say he is one of kind is an understatement, and he and I often did not see eye to eye on things. However, I trusted him as a coworker and I would take him in a gun fight over most people (including those who attend training classes) because he had the "it" factor. He didn't brag, he wasn't macho, but you just recognized he had the mindset to win at the tough things in life.

[Casual Friday]

That may be it, you cannot find a need for a revolver in your life, but others can find that need. The example I gave of my wife is but one of many.


I don't know how much time you have spent in foreign countries (it may be substantial, my experience is limited to Mexico and Canada), but I could see a revolver being useful in many undertrained places. Such as the police force of Mexico City. Especially since they will respond to calls in large numbers.


Up until a year ago I worked with a guy who carried a 329PD (a 20 something oz revolver) with fully house .44 magnum loads on duty. To say he is one of kind is an understatement, and he and I often did not see eye to eye on things. However, I trusted him as a coworker and I would take him in a gun fight over most people (including those who attend training classes) because he had the "it" factor. He didn't brag, he wasn't macho, but you just recognized he had the mindset to win at the tough things in life.

And yet, at no time did I tell anyone else not to use one.