Another "why revolvers?" thread (culled side conversation)

[Wake27]

Goodness, so much fail...

I'm not sure which part is the best. It might be stating that revolvers are hipster guns but implying that 1911s aren't, but it's tied with revolvers being more difficult to operate.

Capacity is an issue with revolvers...and 1911s...and compact autoloaders like the Shield and the PPS. It's an issue with anything that doesn't have a double-stack magazine. Until it's SHTF time, though, it's unknown whether it's a relevant issue. For most defensive gun uses, five rounds are enough. We're adults and make our own cost/benefit analyses.

"Reportedly" more picky about being clean? There's no "reportedly" about it, it's a long-known fact, but it's only relevant in matches and high round-count practice sessions. You don't carry a gun, round or square, on the street with a dirty chamber. That's like thinking that because a gun can run without lube that it's silly to lube it. A revolver with clean chambers won't mess you up.

FWIW, this 69-year-old guy usually carries a PX4 or a P99C...with a reload. And occasionally a 4" S&W M 10...with a reload. I'm comfortable with all of them.

Step outside of your circle dude. I’ve never seen a revolver at a class. I legitimately don’t think I’ve seen one at the range in years. The only time I’ve seen people shooting them is the occasional guy at a USPSA match. Even walking around Walmart, all of the bubbas are open carrying Kahrs or Keltecs in their $3 holsters.

1911s are outdated but still so common that they’re not hipster guns. 1911s are what people use when they haven’t kept up with the times or if they want some class. Revolvers are a step behind that. And 1911s, Shields, and I think PPS all have at least a 7+1 capacity, if not 8+1. Most revolvers have what, 5 maybe 6? Sure that may be statistically adequate but force on force tends to greatly reduce accuracy so a few more onboard seems logical. I don’t know what the statistics say, whether 5 or 6 shots is adequate or 5 to 6 hits is adequate. I don’t really worry about that because I bring a lot more.

Reportedly was because I don’t care enough to spend the time behind them to know for myself.

My point is that, given equal time behind the gun, most people will likely be better off in a defensive situation with a 9mm Glock or M&P.


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[Wake27]

Revolver and Glock are both point and shoot but the revolver is much more forgiving of grip issues which can cause the Glock to stop working.

Who initially loaded the Glock for those new shooters ? I’m assuming you provided some instruction? Or did the completely figure it out on their own ? Most fire extinguisher people don’t get any instruction beyond what the gun store guy tells them. Fire extinguisher people are not the same as new shooters with an interest in guns/shooting.

If they don’t touch a gun again for a year, or 5 years how likely are they to retain that knowledge of how to load , unload and properly grip the Glock ? Keeping both thumbs on the sane side of the pistol is second nature to us but apparently is not intuitive.

I could be wrong as this was a few years ago but IIRC, I loaded the gun initially and gave a once over the top of each every time. Then let them get through initial load and try to refill once since I think that’s an important step. I’ll admit that I’ve definitely seen new shooters limp wrist a Glock and cause a malfunction. I’ve also seen shooters with a it of experience under their belt miss even the target backer with a double action trigger pull. I’ve definitely also seen people wrap their thumbs on both sides of the pistol and I haven’t seen someone touch a gun and then go five years before touching it again. Still, and as I said this may all be super biased because it’s just IMO and I have a lot of time behind a Glock, but ALL basic functions beyond pulling a trigger several times seem easier on the Glock. And if that’s the only criteria, I’d maybe only give a slight edge to the revolver for function but a normal handgun in 2020 may makeup for that in accuracy. I do think that’d be an interesting study.


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[revchuck38]

Step outside of your circle dude. I’ve never seen a revolver at a class. I legitimately don’t think I’ve seen one at the range in years. The only time I’ve seen people shooting them is the occasional guy at a USPSA match. Even walking around Walmart, all of the bubbas are open carrying Kahrs or Keltecs in their $3 holsters.

1911s are outdated but still so common that they’re not hipster guns. 1911s are what people use when they haven’t kept up with the times or if they want some class. Revolvers are a step behind that. And 1911s, Shields, and I think PPS all have at least a 7+1 capacity, if not 8+1. Most revolvers have what, 5 maybe 6? Sure that may be statistically adequate but force on force tends to greatly reduce accuracy so a few more onboard seems logical. I don’t know what the statistics say, whether 5 or 6 shots is adequate or 5 to 6 hits is adequate. I don’t really worry about that because I bring a lot more.

Reportedly was because I don’t care enough to spend the time behind them to know for myself.

My point is that, given equal time behind the gun, most people will likely be better off in a defensive situation with a 9mm Glock or M&P.


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I'm familiar with and decently competent with revolvers, 1911s, striker-fired, and DA/SA pistols, usually carry a polymer-framed DA/SA pistol, and I'm the one who needs to step out of my circle? Got it.

The last class I took (about a month and a half ago) I used my S&W M10. I had no problem keeping up with the autoloaders and I was the first revolver shooter to pass that class. If you know how to run a round gun it's not that big a deal, though it does take more work on the shooter's part. My guess is that trainers who structure their classes around high capacity autoloaders do so because a) they know that's what most of their potential customers have and b) they themselves don't know the revolver well enough to train other people on them.

Capacity - mo' ammo is mo' betta' unless you're swimming or on fire. That's the only reason I switched to carrying a bottomfeeder. My concern here is thinking that because you have a lot of ammo that you can piss some of it away in a defensive shooting. You're legally responsible for every round you fire and hitting an innocent person instead of a bad guy will suck for both of you. I hope that the discipline I've developed in years of revolver shooting is still there if I ever have to use a gun to defend myself, regardless of which gun it is.

My point is that, given equal time behind the gun, most people will likely be better off in a defensive situation with a 9mm Glock or M&P.

I agree, and that's why you see them in most cops' holsters. LEOs have limited training time and most of them aren't shooters to the extent that folks on this forum are. If you're willing to put the time in, though, it opens up a lot of options.

Right now you're in the "you don't know what you don't know" mode concerning revolvers. If you've got a friend who owns a decent (S&W, Colt, Ruger) 4" revolver, see if you can borrow it some time (though sourcing ammo for it right now might be a problem) and put a couple of boxes through it. You might like it, you might not, but at least you'll have that experience.

[BehindBlueI's]

My point is that, given equal time behind the gun, most people will likely be better off in a defensive situation with a 9mm Glock or M&P.

For most people in most situations it'll be a wash. There's no statistical difference in outcomes that I've been able to observe. But more people will accidentally shoot themselves with their semi-auto. And in greater numbers then shoot bad guys. Roughly 1/3 of those are due to improper clearing procedures and then pulling the trigger to break down the gun with a cartridge still in the chamber, something that's not an issue with revolvers.

To address a few other points:

I don't attend classes with a revolver unless it's a revolver specific class. Most classes seem to be fairly high round count events and I'm not set up to carry that much ammo with a revolver nor do I want to load speed loaders that much. I'm not going to be the guy who slows a class down because I decided to show up with a revolver.

It's really no bother to brush under the extractor star on occasion, and that's really all the "cleaning" you need to prevent malfunctions. High round count between cleaning isn't a metric I care about. I don't take any pride in not cleaning my guns. That said, @jetfire and @RevolverRob have went to high hundreds/low thousands round counts without issue. It will vary from gun to gun. My WC is much tighter then my MC and is therefore more susceptible to stuff under the extractor star.

As far as the advantages of a revolver, it's been addressed ad nauseum for everything from pocket pistols to rhino killers. The bigger issues usually it boils down to one of the following:

1) Easier/simpler administrative handling making them safer to use for the untrained/semi-trained or physically impaired, as explained above.
1a) Tolerance to neglect, aka the sock drawer gun that sits for a decade and is then suddenly called into action, also making them more suitable for the above.

2) Rounded grips and general shape concealing better and/or being more comfortable
2a) Versatility in grip selection. Grips are easily removed and modified, your options for size, shape, material, and texture are nearly limitless. The grips/stocks come off with a screw driver so you can easily swap them without permanent changes to the gun. Since you're only dealing with a spur or frame instead of a hole for a magazine in the middle of your fist you have more flexibility with sizing and shape.
2b) Recoil mitigation due to the above.

3) Versatility in ammunition selection, given the ammunition doesn't have to cycle the gun nor go up a feed ramp. Any given revolver is likely to have a much wider variety of loads available then a similar magazine fed pistol.


Then there's a host of smaller things. There's some 30 and 40+ page threads dating back to roughly the forum's founding if you want to get further in the weeds.

[Lost River]

Step outside of your circle dude. I’ve never seen a revolver at a class. I legitimately don’t think I’ve seen one at the range in years. The only time I’ve seen people shooting them is the occasional guy at a USPSA match. Even walking around Walmart, all of the bubbas are open carrying Kahrs or Keltecs in their $3 holsters.

1911s are outdated but still so common that they’re not hipster guns. 1911s are what people use when they haven’t kept up with the times or if they want some class. Revolvers are a step behind that. And 1911s, Shields, and I think PPS all have at least a 7+1 capacity, if not 8+1. Most revolvers have what, 5 maybe 6? Sure that may be statistically adequate but force on force tends to greatly reduce accuracy so a few more onboard seems logical. I don’t know what the statistics say, whether 5 or 6 shots is adequate or 5 to 6 hits is adequate. I don’t really worry about that because I bring a lot more.

Reportedly was because I don’t care enough to spend the time behind them to know for myself.

My point is that, given equal time behind the gun, most people will likely be better off in a defensive situation with a 9mm Glock or M&P.


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I load ammo for people. Since the great ammo drought, I have been hit up for .38 special, .357 Magnum, .44 special and .44 Magnum. and a couple people have even requested .45 Colt, which I have not done. I am not talking about a couple of boxes, but loading in volume:

.44 wadcutters


240 grain SWCs





Since small pistol primers have become unobtanium, there are a BUNCH of guys that have dusted off their Glock .45s, and 1911s or other .45 ACPs and have now gone back to carrying a .45.



Some guys I know with special military backgrounds frequently switch back and forth between a Glock and a 1911 as the mood suits them. It has absolutely nothing to do with keeping up with the times. They simply like 1911s, and choose to own and carry them. Same with Glocks, same with revolvers.

No argument about the fact that most untrained civilians would be better off with a Glock or M&P 9mm. I am simply pointing out that there are a LOT of people carrying revolvers daily. There are also a lot guys who carry a .45 1911 that are not at all behind the times, or out of date.

Cheers!

[Wake27]

I'm familiar with and decently competent with revolvers, 1911s, striker-fired, and DA/SA pistols, usually carry a polymer-framed DA/SA pistol, and I'm the one who needs to step out of my circle? Got it.

The last class I took (about a month and a half ago) I used my S&W M10. I had no problem keeping up with the autoloaders and I was the first revolver shooter to pass that class. If you know how to run a round gun it's not that big a deal, though it does take more work on the shooter's part. My guess is that trainers who structure their classes around high capacity autoloaders do so because a) they know that's what most of their potential customers have and b) they themselves don't know the revolver well enough to train other people on them.

Capacity - mo' ammo is mo' betta' unless you're swimming or on fire. That's the only reason I switched to carrying a bottomfeeder. My concern here is thinking that because you have a lot of ammo that you can piss some of it away in a defensive shooting. You're legally responsible for every round you fire and hitting an innocent person instead of a bad guy will suck for both of you. I hope that the discipline I've developed in years of revolver shooting is still there if I ever have to use a gun to defend myself, regardless of which gun it is.

I agree, and that's why you see them in most cops' holsters. LEOs have limited training time and most of them aren't shooters to the extent that folks on this forum are. If you're willing to put the time in, though, it opens up a lot of options.

Right now you're in the "you don't know what you don't know" mode concerning revolvers. If you've got a friend who owns a decent (S&W, Colt, Ruger) 4" revolver, see if you can borrow it some time (though sourcing ammo for it right now might be a problem) and put a couple of boxes through it. You might like it, you might not, but at least you'll have that experience.

I don’t know if they’re considered good or garbage but I have a few boxes through a Ruger Blackhawk and some stainless S&W, both in 38/357. Both belong to my dad along with his 1911.


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[Wake27]

I load ammo for people. Since the great ammo drought, I have been hit up for .38 special, .357 Magnum, .44 special and .44 Magnum. and a couple people have even requested .45 Colt, which I have not done. I am not talking about a couple of boxes, but loading in volume:

.44 wadcutters


240 grain SWCs





Since small pistol primers have become unobtanium, there are a BUNCH of guys that have dusted off their Glock .45s, and 1911s or other .45 ACPs and have now gone back to carrying a .45.



Some guys I know with special military backgrounds frequently switch back and forth between a Glock and a 1911 as the mood suits them. It has absolutely nothing to do with keeping up with the times. They simply like 1911s, and choose to own and carry them. Same with Glocks, same with revolvers.

No argument about the fact that most untrained civilians would be better off with a Glock or M&P 9mm. I am simply pointing out that there are a LOT of people carrying revolvers daily. There are also a lot guys who carry a .45 1911 that are not at all behind the times, or out of date.

Cheers!

Not sure how well you know the guys and their resumes, but at the beginning of DEC, I was shooting with several Green Berets and the one that I was working closest to had no idea how to properly zero an M4 other than adjusting in directions. No MOA, calculations, anything. Special doesn’t necessarily indicate anything more than they pull triggers more and rarely has anything to do with expertise in self defense, concealed carry, etc.


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[revchuck38]

I don’t know if they’re considered good or garbage but I have a few boxes through a Ruger Blackhawk and some stainless S&W, both in 38/357. Both belong to my dad along with his 1911.


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They're both good!

[Stephanie B]

Good point. I will ditch the J frame and start toting my Roland Special.

I'm not strong enough for this:

[RevolverRob]

As BBI mentioned the revolver has several distinct advantages for pocket carry. Something about the 'roundness' of it aids in concealment and ability to present that gun from the pocket. I've never had a semi-auto carry quite like a revolver in the ankle or shoulder holster either. I believe this is because most humans aren't 'flat' and the little hollows in and around their bodies are often rounded, allowing the revolver to sit in them more easily than a semi-auto. This is not to say a semi-auto cannot be concealed in these manners, of course they can and many do it. Just that for some reason the revolver tends to be a bit easier to conceal.

Moving on to reliability, revolvers are neither indestructible nor overly prone to 'unreliability'. A number of guys around here have shot thousands of rounds in PPC long before I was born. Most of them will tell you the PPC guns were built to tight tolerances and the wadcutters they shot were dirty, hence the stories of needing to clean the gun after 50-rounds. Replace wadcutters with quality duty-grade ammunition using flash-suppressed (i.e., 'clean shooting') powders and they'll run for quite a while sans cleaning, even at those tight tolerances. I've personally put a couple of thousand rounds in a weekend down range of box stock PPU or S&B .38 Special through a GP100 a few times. I've never done more than run a bore snake through the gun and a quick brush under the extractor star. I view this as maintenance no different than checking your magazines or inspecting for crud around the 'must function' parts of the pistol. I ASSume folks around here regularly inspect guns for lint and detritus that is attracted to carry guns and clean them off. Not sure why checking under the extractor star or giving it a quick wipe with your finger or a tooth brush is viewed as a 'deal killer'. Heck, I even wipe the burnt carbon off my the muzzle of my 1911 sometimes...

Anyways, I think the main take away is revolvers are 'different' and different relative to what is primarily being used today. The invention of reliable pistols that are the size of J-Frames, firing 9x19 ammo in many ways renders the J-Frame obsolete. That said, when the end of the world comes, I'll probably be toting a pair of J-Frames around in lieu of a P365.

In that case it will be ten one way half-of-twenty the other...