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Thread: Mike Pannone video on ready position

  1. #21
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paherne View Post
    2x is a fair bit?
    Yes. Twice in a compilation trailer none of which is fighting down a tube. Yes.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    It’s not really that the Israelis are not the measure of bad ass tactical stuff they used to be. In fairness to them, they are actually better than they used to be. It’s that the Israelis are not the measure of bad ass tactical stuff we thought they were. Especially between Vietnam and the GWOT.
    Their current training is the best they have ever had as far as Israeli SOF is concerned. That said, I agree that they had a certain “mystique” around them that was larger than life and as such they didn’t live up to it. While I have a huge amount of respect for American SOF I would say the same is true for them.

    Ask Cecil what he thinks about some of the bad grappling advice given by some Tier 1 guys.

    One DEVGRU guy was telling people on IG and YT to use tampons to control bleeding. He caught so much shit for it he deleted it.

    Marcus Luttrell never fired a single shot and was ambushed by 10 enemies (not 50 as told in his book) according to military investigators.

    Chris Kyle lied about several things.

    Chris Mickenly (prob got the last name wrong), another SEAL, made up a story about getting ambushed by three dudes in a parking lot.

    Remember those two former SF dues that tries to start a coup down south? They wore American flag patches, told everyone their plans via Twitter, and generally did nothing as far as OPSEC.

    I could go on and on but the point isn’t to insult American SOF, the point is that every military has their own fair share of “derp.”

    No military SOF on the planet lives up to the Hollywood hype.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    Yes. Twice in a compilation trailer none of which is fighting down a tube. Yes.
    Where does Will Petty recommend Temple Index when fighting down a tube? I think Pannone needs to take a class from Will Petty. He doesn't know what he doesn't know and he's mis-applying the Temple Index. I hated the idea of the Temple Index, until I took the class and it does have SOME utility in very narrow circumstances. Which is moving your gun around your partner to make a shot when you're stuck in a police vehicle after you've already been ambushed. It has noting to do with tubular assaults.

    This kind of thing is why taking training from former military instructors can be incredibly detrimental for civilian LE without understanding context. What works in their world with a team of highly-trained, actual operators, in full armor and helmets may not work for your average donut-muncher wearing a blue wool blouse sitting at a stop light.

    FTR, I like Pannone's rationale for his low ready in a tubular assault. It seems well thought out. I would like to take a class with him when he comes back to the Bay Area.

  4. #24
    One of our now former agency instructors took several of Petty's classes and came back teaching the temple index, and he never presented as anything but for safe movement among friendlies, at least not that I saw. My understanding is that it originated with executive protection teams working inside of a vehicles, and I can certainly see it in that context.

    I like the low position presented in the Pannone video versus Sul. I understand what he is saying about temple index, but I don't think the temple index is properly used in the context in which he is discussing it. Under interweb rules, I am not certain if I should be showering him with roses for the part that I like or getting my pitchfork for the portion for which I disagree.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by jlw View Post
    One of our now former agency instructors took several of Petty's classes and came back teaching the temple index, and he never presented as anything but for safe movement among friendlies, at least not that I saw. My understanding is that it originated with executive protection teams working inside of a vehicles, and I can certainly see it in that context.

    I like the low position presented in the Pannone video versus Sul. I understand what he is saying about temple index, but I don't think the temple index is properly used in the context in which he is discussing it. Under interweb rules, I am not certain if I should be showering him with roses for the part that I like or getting my pitchfork for the portion for which I disagree.
    While I can’t speak for every EP guy or team, I can tell you that I have never used it in a car nor have seen any of my mates use it in a car. Rarely do we ever have pistols out in a vehicle and if we do we keep them a bit more hidden.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by paherne View Post
    Where does Will Petty recommend Temple Index when fighting down a tube? .
    Whole video is solid. Petty seems to indicate that Temple Index discusses fighting in a tube from 30s - 3m30s.
    David S.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by David S. View Post
    Whole video is solid. Petty seems to indicate that Temple Index discusses fighting in a tube from 30s - 3m30s.
    That’s a great video for explaining the reason for the position. I do believe his “tube” reference is merely to create a visual for the student. He’s not talking about tubular assaults. Temple Index is not an assault position and anyone using it that way is doing it wrong.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warped Mindless View Post
    Their current training is the best they have ever had as far as Israeli SOF is concerned. That said, I agree that they had a certain “mystique” around them that was larger than life and as such they didn’t live up to it. While I have a huge amount of respect for American SOF I would say the same is true for them.

    Ask Cecil what he thinks about some of the bad grappling advice given by some Tier 1 guys.

    One DEVGRU guy was telling people on IG and YT to use tampons to control bleeding. He caught so much shit for it he deleted it.

    Marcus Luttrell never fired a single shot and was ambushed by 10 enemies (not 50 as told in his book) according to military investigators.

    Chris Kyle lied about several things.

    Chris Mickenly (prob got the last name wrong), another SEAL, made up a story about getting ambushed by three dudes in a parking lot.

    Remember those two former SF dues that tries to start a coup down south? They wore American flag patches, told everyone their plans via Twitter, and generally did nothing as far as OPSEC.

    I could go on and on but the point isn’t to insult American SOF, the point is that every military has their own fair share of “derp.”

    No military SOF on the planet lives up to the Hollywood hype.
    I agree the Israelis pros are better they have ever been. As such their TTPs tend to be very similar to US, NATO and Russian TTPs. When people are purveying the older or uniquely Israeli TTP’s they are usually selling snake oil.

    Character and competence are two completely separate topics. So your examples aren’t really relevant.

    In terms of technical and tactical competence US SOF is as good as it gets right now.

    In terms of character some organizations screen for that more than others. One can be a technically and tactically proficient sociopath.

    Different organizations have different priorities.

    Re: what former members of particular units teach - different guys have different specialties and areas of expertise- no on is an expert in everything. It also depends on when they were in. Things were very different pre-GWOT.

    In the mid 2000s my agency was using a lot of TTPs they got from a certain SOF unit in the late 1990s long story short by 2005-2006, when we followed up with that unit, their TTPs had changed completely.

  9. #29
    Site Supporter NickDrak's Avatar
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    As much as I respect Pannone and believe he has contributed so much to the art, I think he’s off base here and rehashing his beef with temple index is just beating a dead horse...again. Temple Index as taught by Will Petty is NOT a ready position and never was meant to be a ready position.

  10. #30
    Member jd950's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    Early in that vid he referred to re-posting a pic re temple that was "cutting". It's gone now but it was sort of hilarious.
    I always want more hilarious stuff in my life. Anyone have a copy f the now deleted pic?

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