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Thread: Mike Pannone video on ready position

  1. #11
    SUL has its place, as an "easy button" to quickly teach folks how to move around each other safely in a cramped environment. I have taught this to others for this reason.

    It is NOT the awesome, universal technique some make it out to be.

    The position he's advocating has merit, and I may explore it and put it in the "toolbox" at some point, but it makes it awfully easy to muzzle your hand under stress, I think, without a huge amount of muscle-memory ingraining.

  2. #12
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    I saw the meme, I saw Pannone's video.

    If I had to do a linear, tubular assault as Pannone described, his High Ready position makes tremendous sense. A higher Ready position like it would also make tremendous sense when moving upstream through humans at an Active Killer scene.

    The Temple Index as Will, Chase, etc of Centrifuge teach it is not a ready position. It is a location to anchor the hand/pistol when having to move around friendlies in very tight confines. If it was taught as a ready position, it would be a very bad one.

    Likewise, I cannot think of any traditional Ready position (or variation of one) that I'd want to use inside a vehicle if I had to get a muzzle around, past a friendly who was also inside that vehicle.

  3. #13
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    It appears to be used a fair bit here

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LOR5sLXLmeo
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  4. #14
    Site Supporter Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    Early in that vid he referred to re-posting a pic re temple that was "cutting". It's gone now but it was sort of hilarious.
    Yes it was.
    Formerly known as xpd54.
    The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect the opinions or policies of my employer.
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  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Warped Mindless View Post
    Great video!

    Even back years ago my old Israeli pistol instructor told us that temple indexing (he didn’t call it that) is completely retarded. The fact that so many “high speed” guys teaches it (such as John Lovell) baffles me.

    SUL is also dumb and I was guilty of using it for a long while. Finally had a mentor see me using it and asked me some questions that’s led me to the realization it was silly.
    Sounds like your Israeli instructor is ignorant. Most people I’ve encountered who take issue with temple index mistakenly believe it to be a ready position. It’s for movement when that’s the safest muzzle direction. There is a time and place for it, and it’s up to the person with the gun to figure out when. I think it was Scott Reitz who said gunfighting is problem solving under extreme stress. Or words to that effect. If people can’t problem solve where to point their muzzle based on their environment, they need a wooden gun instead of a real one. If they think up is “retarded” then I’d encourage you to find a more enlightened instructor.

    I’ve trained with Will Petty and teach his material in my agency. I also took Pannone’s Vehicle Tactics and TCCC class. Both are accomplished and very knowledgeable instructors. No instructor has all the answers. Take what you can use what works for you.

    I will say what Pannone talks about in the video is accurate. But his concern over disarms and dislocated shoulders seems like it lacks context to me. I’m not going to use temple index while moving among hostiles. It’s for movement or when stacked with friendlies in tight quarters. If a threat is anywhere close to me I won’t be using TI.

    Oh and the Israelis are not the measure of bad ass tactical stuff they used to be.

  6. #16
    Site Supporter LOKNLOD's Avatar
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    Pannone's take on it with the hand on the gun is a new one for me, first time I've seen that. I kind of like the idea of the support hand accomplishing basically everything going on it SUL but still providing an extra layer of control over the gun vs. just resting on it. Interesting discussion here.

    Not sure if anyone has said it this way, but I think the important part of temple index is index, not temple, despite a lot of people getting hung up on where the gun is located (not necessarily folks here). Giving the gun a "sticky" spot to hang out at while in a safe(r) muzzle direction while holding it one-handed, vs. letting that arm flop around in space - especially during movement.

    I've got 3 petite teen/pre-teen daughters who were previously very small children (that's pretty typical outside the Benjamin Button family, I suppose). Children that were likely to stick-tite to mom and dad if something scary started happening, which could either get them muzzled or just generally foul my gun presentation. As such I've become biased towards upward oriented muzzle techniques.

    With much thought about it, I've defaulted to the high compressed ready more or less like Fisher shows here:
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    I think it provides a good middle ground that transitions well to other useful positions.

    Pros:
    --muzzle is upward, no flagging kids or people immediately around me (treehouse dwellers be damned)
    --muzzle/front sight is in peripheral vision, good start to level out and press out the gun to a shoot. This position provides more advantage of replicating my draw stroke index than coming up from low ready does, and is more conducive to getting sights on target and allowing the trigger manipulation to start
    --Wrists are in a neutral orientation and can maintain this position comfortably for an extended period and grip is still full and strong on gun
    --can easily collapse through position #3 (muzzle level, can get hits) into #2 (thumb-pectoral) if a threat encroaches
    --can easily collapse to a temple index position to move through a scenario where support and is needed to operate a door, wrangle a kid, whatever
    --if moving around obstacles it's less likely to get hung up on a chair, countertop, clothing rack, low wall, potted plant, etc.

    Cons:
    --it can a little more of your immediate area peripheral vision in front and below than a true low ready or flat #3, especially if you "turtle up" with it and get too much behind the gun.
    --If you let a threat get too close and entangle you in this position without reacting at all (it's always possible), it's feasible for the gun to smack you in the face with the right push, and an in-fight impromptu front sight taste test is not going to do you any favors
    --relative to above it's possible for this to be collapsed muzzle-up under your chin and i don't think i need to explain why that would be a bad scenario

    Other things I've thought about, not sure it's either pro-or-con:
    -- puts more arm/hand meat up in front of your torso. Maybe that means they absorb damage by taking one for the team (better a forearm than a lung?), maybe that means you're more likely to get hand/forearm shot and be working one handed or have your weapon disabled. Long term, in those cases it may be better than having parts of your thoracic triangle disabled, but in mid fight it's going to suck. No free lunch, eh?
    -- gun is more readily visible as it puts it up closer to your face and normal people look at faces. Less discreet in a chaotic situation perhaps?
    -- there's really no true "safe" position outside of a berm and i'm making the choice to risk launching a bullet to be a random problem a mile away instead of potentially skipping it off the concrete a few yards away (no one ever gets mugged on a dirt surface, do they? I think concrete attracts crime, ha)
    --Josh
    “Formerly we suffered from crimes; now we suffer from laws.” - Tacitus.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by LOKNLOD View Post

    Not sure if anyone has said it this way, but I think the important part of temple index is index, not temple, despite a lot of people getting hung up on where the gun is located (not necessarily folks here). Giving the gun a "sticky" spot to hang out at while in a safe(r) muzzle direction while holding it one-handed, vs. letting that arm flop around in space - especially during movement.
    This. Another technique Will teaches is holster index. Holding your pistol on the outside of your holster. I rarely see it mentioned and it doesn’t generate the uninformed hate temple index does.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    Sounds like your Israeli instructor is ignorant. Most people I’ve encountered who take issue with temple index mistakenly believe it to be a ready position. It’s for movement when that’s the safest muzzle direction. There is a time and place for it, and it’s up to the person with the gun to figure out when. I think it was Scott Reitz who said gunfighting is problem solving under extreme stress. Or words to that effect. If people can’t problem solve where to point their muzzle based on their environment, they need a wooden gun instead of a real one. If they think up is “retarded” then I’d encourage you to find a more enlightened instructor.

    I’ve trained with Will Petty and teach his material in my agency. I also took Pannone’s Vehicle Tactics and TCCC class. Both are accomplished and very knowledgeable instructors. No instructor has all the answers. Take what you can use what works for you.

    I will say what Pannone talks about in the video is accurate. But his concern over disarms and dislocated shoulders seems like it lacks context to me. I’m not going to use temple index while moving among hostiles. It’s for movement or when stacked with friendlies in tight quarters. If a threat is anywhere close to me I won’t be using TI.

    Oh and the Israelis are not the measure of bad ass tactical stuff they used to be.
    It’s not really that the Israelis are not the measure of bad ass tactical stuff they used to be. In fairness to them, they are actually better than they used to be. It’s that the Israelis are not the measure of bad ass tactical stuff we thought they were. Especially between Vietnam and the GWOT.

    I think Pannone’s concerns about the disarms, etc come directly from the context of the FAMS where a hostile “sleeper” coming up the aisle behind you to grab your gun was a consideration. He also came from organizations which frowned on high ready positions in general because it meant muzzling people on catwalks in CQB shoot houses.

    I believe NYPD teaches something similar to the protected low ready Pannone demonstrates in the video. Given the crowded and potentially hostile conditions in NYC it makes sense.

  9. #19
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    Timely discussion. This has come up and become an issue for us. I saw Mike's video, and I'm aware of Will Pettys block of instruction on this as well. I've trained several times with Mike, and I'd like to train with Will. I have enormous respect for Mike, and his experience and skills as both a practice of what he teaches, and as an instructor. That said, I dont think the critique is entire fair, in that I've never heard of Will Petty advocating the Temple Index as anything BUT a transitional position, pretty much exclusively in the context of maneuvering in/out of a vehicle with friendlies in close proximity. I've never trained with him, though, so I could be wrong.

    We currently teach a classic low ready to our folks, gun at 45° with the muzzle around the waistline. Like everyone else has said, context matters. I am in favor of teaching a compressed High Ready in context as well, though some of my staff is uncomfortable with that due frankly to their own limited exposure and training. We have in the past taught Sul.....for a while in place of standard low ready. There are certain units in our department that are very enamored of Position Sul...and teach it to our Academy Recruits during their Officer Safety/Field Tactics week. They heavily advocate it as a total replacement for Low Ready, including during building searches. I am trying to rectify this, and establish same page instruction among these various entities, but its a challenge. There's nothing so stubborn as an athletic 8 year veteran cop who's made it to the Special Operations group and gets their answers from Instagram.

    Several of our SWAT guys have also taken multiple course from Mike, and have adopted his "Low Ready" position. In context (confined spaces around unknown persons) it makes sense. Unfortunately, some younger patrol cops see them doing this in context,, and miss the context, adopting it as a "Cool Guy" technique. For regular folks who don't have a firm grip index to begin with? Nah...not so much. Just my opinion

    Currently this is on topic for us because our Civilian Oversight agency has set its sights on this area. Our policy makes the pointing of a firearm at a suspect a Reportable Use of Force, which requires a supervisory investigation. The oversight folks believe that we have "invented " the Low Ready position in the last two years to evade this policy....and are not open to facts, logic or reason on this point. We'll see where this goes.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    It appears to be used a fair bit here

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LOR5sLXLmeo
    2x is a fair bit?

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