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Thread: Is .38 spl. destined to be a "Tier 2" performer?

  1. #21
    Member Sal Picante's Avatar
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    Didn't they stop making .38-44 "Hi-Speed" ammo because it'd blow up older Smith's?

    This stuff was "fun" to shoot... out of an LCR (38 not .357)...

    http://instagram.com/p/BequGV3nPtx/

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Les Pepperoni View Post
    Didn't they stop making .38-44 "Hi-Speed" ammo because it'd blow up older Smith's?

    This stuff was "fun" to shoot... out of an LCR (38 not .357)...

    http://instagram.com/p/BequGV3nPtx/
    Blow up? Nah.

    Wear out faster? Maybe.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    And, since it always comes up in these conversational swings, a modern version of the old Federal +P+ hydra-shok 147 grain would be great. How hard would it be to adapt the 147 HST bullet to a .38 case, and drive it to an honest 975-1000fps out of a 4” tube?

    Or the 147 GDHP?
    I never had a chance to try that +P+ HS load, but I suspect it might not have reached those velocities from a standard revolver given industry advertising standards. Still, one of those bullets in a revolver would be enough to get me to switch, especially since they'd hit POA from a fixed-sight 4" gun whereas current high-tech loads hit low, at least in my guns.

  4. #24
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    Add the .357 GDHP to the list.

    And, I agree: there is a lot to be said about a +P+ .38, since we now have guns that can handle it.

    I feel that the 135gr .38 GDHP load could really use another 100 fps across the board, from 1 7/8” barrels up to 4”. 890fps out of 4” K-frames makes me just reach for the Remington FBI load or .357 -P instead.

    And, since it always comes up in these conversational swings, a modern version of the old Federal +P+ hydra-shok 147 grain would be great. How hard would it be to adapt the 147 HST bullet to a .38 case, and drive it to an honest 975-1000fps out of a 4” tube?

    Or the 147 GDHP?
    I dont even know if we would need +p+. Just load to the upper end.

    18,000psi is still a +p. Lets see more loads or data for reloading like from buffalobore or underwood. Im guessing they load to 20k

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Les Pepperoni View Post
    Didn't they stop making .38-44 "Hi-Speed" ammo because it'd blow up older Smith's?
    Actually no, they didn't. The 38-44 passed into obscurity because it's younger cousin (by 5 years) took over and dominated the medium bore high performance market. That was the 357 Magnum.

    S&W's advertised performance for the 38-44 was a 158g bullet at 1125 fps. If you want to duplicate that today you can load 11g-11.5g of 2400 behind that weight bullet, or you can buy the almost exact performance from Buffalo Bore. Their 38 Special +P 158g SWCHP-GC duplicates the old 38-44. I've chronographed it in both a 4" Heavy Duty and a pre-War 5" HD. Velocities ran from 1127 to 1141.

    Dave

  6. #26
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave T View Post
    Actually no, they didn't. The 38-44 passed into obscurity because it's younger cousin (by 5 years) took over and dominated the medium bore high performance market. That was the 357 Magnum.

    S&W's advertised performance for the 38-44 was a 158g bullet at 1125 fps. If you want to duplicate that today you can load 11g-11.5g of 2400 behind that weight bullet, or you can buy the almost exact performance from Buffalo Bore. Their 38 Special +P 158g SWCHP-GC duplicates the old 38-44. I've chronographed it in both a 4" Heavy Duty and a pre-War 5" HD. Velocities ran from 1127 to 1141.

    Dave
    Fwiw
    My 4" m64 got 1089fps with a 158gr swc over 11.5gr 2400.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by jh9 View Post
    A Rem 125gr SJHP at or over the 1,450fps threshold that doesn't fragment? Kinda sus. I think that one always goes to pieces in organic gel and free range felon. So I don't think a comparison can really be made between the two since clear gel.
    That section of chart is to show the difference in velocity between the two Remington .357 loads.

    There's only a 113fps difference between the ".357 Lite" Golden Saber vs Full power SJHP from the 2" barrel.

    Where you really see that the GS is a ".357 lite" load is the 4" velocity comparison. The GS is 1182fps - about a 9mm NATO level of power - whereas the SJHP is clocking 1473fps. Thats a 291fps difference - and a corresponding increase in blast and recoil from a J frame.

  8. #28
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    How hard would it be to adapt the 147 HST bullet to a .38 case, and drive it to an honest 975-1000fps out of a 4” tube?

    Or the 147 GDHP?
    I'd be amazed if an engineer hasn't doodled up a CAD model of those options. The science is done, as 0.002 inch isn't going to change any physics. Just make it a hair bigger. But they would have to tool it, and that's expensive. My production engineering lizard brain also worries about getting product mixed up. If the .357 bullets got loaded in .355 cases, that could lead to a range of bad things happening, and .355 bullets in .357 cases would a the minimum have poor accuracy, but possibly also issues with jumping crimp, etc. It would be better if you could tell the bullets apart without a caliper in your hand, which would mean an all-new design. Perhaps the reason we see 130-140-gr loads from several manufacturers.

    Hodgdon has data for a 146gr Speer JHP in .38 +P, but with a 7.7-in barrel. Four loads are >1000 fps, seven are >975 fps.

    I think it's clear that your target can be done with a 4-in barrel, but it's entirely possible that to get the 975-1000 fps range from a slightly shorter 3 inch barrel preferred by many for carry would require pressures not reliably within the .38 +P standard. That would make it have to be loaded in .357 cases, and a load labeled .357 at that power level would be almost sales-proof for people who aren't posters here. Plus, it couldn't be loaded in all the M64/M67 and non-.357 J frames out there, which is kinda the point.

    BBTI http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.html doesn't have exactly the data I'd like to show, but it's worth another pass through the .38 and .357 pages there.

    TLDR: After thinking it through, it's likely that your proposed target is possible, but in practical terms, there are just enough complications to keep it from being a slam dunk.
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  9. #29
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    I'm honestly hoping now that Barnes has been bought by Sierra, we can get a steady supply of the 140-grain bullets in .357". That particular bullet will make a very fine .38 Special load at 1000fps. The Barnes factory load in .357 Mag is actually a bit too hot and could stand to be dropped about 150fps (from 1400 to 1250). The Buffalo Bore loading in .357 Magnum is about perfect, actually.

    Buffalo Bore or Sierra or someone should do a 140-grain XPB +P .38Spl load. That all copper projectile at 750-800fps from a snub should work well and it should hit like a brick shithouse from a 4" gun.

    A man can dream...

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    I'm honestly hoping now that Barnes has been bought by Sierra, we can get a steady supply of the 140-grain bullets in .357". That particular bullet will make a very fine .38 Special load at 1000fps. The Barnes factory load in .357 Mag is actually a bit too hot and could stand to be dropped about 150fps (from 1400 to 1250). The Buffalo Bore loading in .357 Magnum is about perfect, actually.

    Buffalo Bore or Sierra or someone should do a 140-grain XPB +P .38Spl load. That all copper projectile at 750-800fps from a snub should work well and it should hit like a brick shithouse from a 4" gun.

    A man can dream...
    Dammit, yes. I think that 140gr XPB offering from Federal is/was the finest .357 offering out there. I'd love to see it loaded in .38+P. I suppose if I can find some reloading bullets, I can work some loads up, and I know I build another Fackler Box.

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