Is .38 spl. destined to be a "Tier 2" performer?

[revchuck38]

@dogcaller - The reason for the relatively large .38 Special case is that it was originally designed as a black powder cartridge and needed that room to fit enough black to give it a performance advantage over its then-competitors.

Since the majority of folks who carry guns rely on autoloaders and those that carry revolvers tend to carry J frames, there's little-to-no incentive for ammo companies to spend R&D money on an updated .38 Special version for service-size guns. They'd never recover their investment. Federal could do it relatively cheaply by adding about 20 grains to the current HST load and balancing the powder charge, but since they're getting scalper's prices on anything they can push out the door right now, it makes no business sense.

IMO, the old-school FBI loads by Remington and Winchester are still good performers in service-size guns with the exception of intermediate barrier performance...if you can find any. I carry the Remington version when I carry a 4" K frame.

[dogcaller]

I appreciate the replies. It seems the answer is market-based rather than limitation-based, and that definitely makes some sense, even if it is slightly annoying to someone looking for factory carry ammo. Maybe I’ll try some of the Buffalo Bore. I probably have a box of 158gr LSWCHP +P buried somewhere...

[BehindBlueI's]

I appreciate the replies. It seems the answer is market-based rather than limitation-based, and that definitely makes some sense, even if it is slightly annoying to someone looking for factory carry ammo. Maybe I’ll try some of the Buffalo Bore. I probably have a box of 158gr LSWCHP +P buried somewhere...

There are some good +P options. If you can find them to purchase.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....0-ACP-vs-38-Sp goes into depth on a few.

Anecdotally, the Winchester bonded +P mentioned in that thread worked for me vs an aggressive pitbull that surprised me and got me on the forearm before I could react.

[jtcarm]

The problem is theres so many older .38's of dubious quality and strength.

I think whats needed is more ".357 lite" loads, loaded to replicate 9x19 performance and powder charge. Ie 125gr @ 1100fps from a J frame, 1200-1250fps from a 4."

This would provide more ballistic performance then .38+p, but a less recoil and much less blast then a proper .357. And there'd be no safety concerns, as any .357 revolver could easily handle it.

.38 +p 125gr = 850fps J frame; 950fps 4" (too little)
".357 lite" 125gr = 1100fps J frame, 1200fps 4" (goldilocks)
.357 Magnum 125gr =1200fps J frame, 1425fps 4" (too much)

The difference between the Remington Golden Saber .357 'lite', vs the classic full power .357 Remington SJHP shows the .357 lite concept well:

Bingo.

I was thinking just the other day a .357 -P (say, under 30,000 PSI) would make a great SD round.

Looking at LuckyGunner stats for .357, what jumps out at me is the difference in terminal performance for the same round between 2” and 4” barrels. This tells me the velocity window is too wide for one bullet.

[revchuck38]

@jtcarm - FYI, Remington loaded a version of the Golden Sabre load prior to the introduction of the GS bullet, using the same bullet as the full-power load but at the same velocity as the current GS load. I believe that it was introduced in the mid-to-late 80s. It was developed in response to issues with K frames shooting the full-power load.

[03RN]

Bingo.

I was thinking just the other day a .357 -P (say, under 30,000 PSI) would make a great SD round.

Looking at LuckyGunner stats for .357, what jumps out at me is the difference in terminal performance for the same round between 2” and 4” barrels. This tells me the velocity window is too wide for one bullet.

The golden sabers, silvertips, and critical duty already exist.

The reason Im interested in warmer .38 loads are commonality across my guns.

Eta and because I like to tinker and I think the .38 is capable, along with the guns

[gato naranja]

Bingo.

I was thinking just the other day a .357 -P (say, under 30,000 PSI) would make a great SD round.

A lot of intelligent and practical people over the years have used what could be considered a ".357 -P" load, and not always in the .357 Magnum case. The more political components of law enforcement hierarchies and the ammunition companies seeking their custom may not have shown much enthusiasm, but they have generally had different priorities than we mere drones have.

Personally, I seldom need full power .357 Magnum loads and still have what is - at my age - a lifetime supply of them. A ".357 -P" is something I will still actually buy.

[jh9]

The difference between the Remington Golden Saber .357 'lite', vs the classic full power .357 Remington SJHP shows the .357 lite concept well:

A Rem 125gr SJHP at or over the 1,450fps threshold that doesn't fragment? Kinda sus. I think that one always goes to pieces in organic gel and free range felon. So I don't think a comparison can really be made between the two since clear gel.

[Baldanders]

Bingo.

I was thinking just the other day a .357 -P (say, under 30,000 PSI) would make a great SD round.

Looking at LuckyGunner stats for .357, what jumps out at me is the difference in terminal performance for the same round between 2” and 4” barrels. This tells me the velocity window is too wide for one bullet.

Synthetic gel tests prove nothing.

Nothing at all. No good for comparison with organic gelatin tests.



That being said, we have covered this topic a bunch in various threads, especially the .38 snubby ammo threads.

I have argued for a ".38 magnum" designation to allow a 9mm para-type load in .38 Special. With the passage of time, I have become content with the Gold Dot .38 Short Barrel load, and if I really needed a power upgrade, I would use the .357 short barrel load in my 640.

I don't enjoy Airweights with +p 125 grain, anyway. I would probably be carrying target wadcutters in an alloy jframe.

I would feel fine with the Ranger/SXT or Gold Dot 135 grain .38 loads in a 4-6" gun. Heck, I would be OK with the old school Remington .38 sjhp 125 or the 158 grain LSWCHP too.

[Totem Polar]

The golden sabers, silvertips, and critical duty already exist.

The reason Im interested in warmer .38 loads are commonality across my guns.

Add the .357 GDHP to the list.

And, I agree: there is a lot to be said about a +P+ .38, since we now have guns that can handle it.

I feel that the 135gr .38 GDHP load could really use another 100 fps across the board, from 1 7/8” barrels up to 4”. 890fps out of 4” K-frames makes me just reach for the Remington FBI load or .357 -P instead.

And, since it always comes up in these conversational swings, a modern version of the old Federal +P+ hydra-shok 147 grain would be great. How hard would it be to adapt the 147 HST bullet to a .38 case, and drive it to an honest 975-1000fps out of a 4” tube?

Or the 147 GDHP?