Is .38 spl. destined to be a "Tier 2" performer?

[dogcaller]

I cut my teeth shooting a 4" GP100, then migrated to fantastic plastic: USP40, then Glocks, then Sigs, CZ, etc. Many moons later I pick up a police trade-in model 64 for a song, I buy a nice Kramer holster for it (at ~1/3 of what I paid for the 64) and I'm digging it. Except for the sights--but that's another story, right?

I have a 638 I use for occasional pocket carry, using 148 DEWCs. So anyway, this 64 riding so nice in the Kramer has got me thinking about the .38 as a defensive piece in a way I haven't before, and I'm wondering why it is loaded the way it is... I think it's no surprise that the .38 is not considered to not be as capable a performer as modern 9s, .40s, .45, etc. There's no magic involved, obviously, so I figure it must be a velocity issue, but I'm not sure it's that simple... When I look at ballistic charts, I see that 125 gr. .38+P is often loaded ~75-ish FPS slower than 124 gr. 9mm standard velocity, and ~100-150FPS slower than 9mm +P.

There is obviously PLENTY of case capacity in those big .38 spls. Can the K-frames not handle it? That would be surprising to me--but that's why I'm asking. What is stopping anyone from loading .38s to proven 9mm velocities with comparable bullets? No one considers 9mm as hard to handle, even with +P rounds, so what gives?

[BehindBlueI's]

Case volume isn't the issue. The only reason the .357 magnum is longer is so they can't be loaded in .38 Special revolvers.

The question of if a given gun can handle "+P" loads is going to vary depending on the revolver. There's some pretty hefty .38 loads out there and some guns designed for them. Others...not so much.

I suspect what holds the .38 back is the lack of R&D and the market. I would guess the vast majority of defensive ammo sold for .38s is destined for a 2" barrel of some sort. There's just not many people carrying a 4-6" .38 these days. So the loads and bullets aren't designed with "duty pistol" in mind.

[Rex G]

Keep in mind that revolver ammo does not have to climb feed ramps, so the cavities in the noses of the bullets can be quite deep and wide. Or, if one wants to use flat-nosed full wadcutters, not all of which are loaded mild, that is something that precious few auto-loaders can hope to feed.

I am not “choosing sides,” here. I use auto-loading and revolving pistols.

[okie john]

Here you go: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=108

158 grains at 1,000 fps.


Okie John

[03RN]

Its pretty easy to get a 158gr bullet to 1000-1100fps. What 9mm can claim that?

I do agree its odd that its so hard to find service quality factory ammo with 125gr @1100-1200fps which I think should be feasible.

I think its similar to 45-70s. The cartridge and most guns are capable but some guns are not.

[Totem Polar]

Here you go: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=108

158 grains at 1,000 fps.


Okie John

That stuff is a lot hotter than 1,000 fps out of a service revolver. Honestly, I’d be just as happy if they toned it down a hair so it’s actually going 1k out of the average 3”. That said, it’s good stuff.

[FrankB]

Speaking of case volume.... I bought a BUNCH of Federal Micro HST just before the drought began. Federal claims that its recessed bullet compacts the powder, given it a better burn than the loose powder in a regular .38 special round. I’ve seen many expansion tests with this round, and its 130 grain bullet almost always expands to .75 inches. Is it an innovative round? Maybe, but someone might have done something similar before.

[jtcarm]

Its pretty easy to get a 158gr bullet to 1000-1100fps. What 9mm can claim that?

I do agree its odd that its so hard to find service quality factory ammo with 125gr @1100-1200fps which I think should be feasible.

I think its similar to 45-70s. The cartridge and most guns are capable but some guns are not.

It is easy, and that’s why we have the .357 magnum.

[spyderco monkey]

I cut my teeth shooting a 4" GP100, then migrated to fantastic plastic: USP40, then Glocks, then Sigs, CZ, etc. Many moons later I pick up a police trade-in model 64 for a song, I buy a nice Kramer holster for it (at ~1/3 of what I paid for the 64) and I'm digging it. Except for the sights--but that's another story, right?

I have a 638 I use for occasional pocket carry, using 148 DEWCs. So anyway, this 64 riding so nice in the Kramer has got me thinking about the .38 as a defensive piece in a way I haven't before, and I'm wondering why it is loaded the way it is... I think it's no surprise that the .38 is not considered to not be as capable a performer as modern 9s, .40s, .45, etc. There's no magic involved, obviously, so I figure it must be a velocity issue, but I'm not sure it's that simple... When I look at ballistic charts, I see that 125 gr. .38+P is often loaded ~75-ish FPS slower than 124 gr. 9mm standard velocity, and ~100-150FPS slower than 9mm +P.

There is obviously PLENTY of case capacity in those big .38 spls. Can the K-frames not handle it? That would be surprising to me--but that's why I'm asking. What is stopping anyone from loading .38s to proven 9mm velocities with comparable bullets? No one considers 9mm as hard to handle, even with +P rounds, so what gives?

The problem is theres so many older .38's of dubious quality and strength.

I think whats needed is more ".357 lite" loads, loaded to replicate 9x19 performance and powder charge. Ie 125gr @ 1100fps from a J frame, 1200-1250fps from a 4."

This would provide more ballistic performance then .38+p, but a less recoil and much less blast then a proper .357. And there'd be no safety concerns, as any .357 revolver could easily handle it.

.38 +p 125gr = 850fps J frame; 950fps 4" (too little)
".357 lite" 125gr = 1100fps J frame, 1200fps 4" (goldilocks)
.357 Magnum 125gr =1200fps J frame, 1425fps 4" (too much)

The difference between the Remington Golden Saber .357 'lite', vs the classic full power .357 Remington SJHP shows the .357 lite concept well:

[JHC]

To @BehindBlueI's point about load development - if Hornady would do a Critical Duty load of 135 grain at 1000 fps the .38 would be right there with the other service pistol calibers.