Is .38 spl. destined to be a "Tier 2" performer?

[03RN]

Folks, plenty of bad guys(and good guys) have been put down by the old LRN .38 bullet. Bullet placement is king no matter the caliber. The 38 ain't dead, far from it.

A lrn is about the worst design possible. And thats coming from a guy who is currently carrying swc-wn in my .357

[OlongJohnson]

I keep coming back to the thought that perhaps a plain ol' cup and core 158-grain hollowpoint when launched from a service-size revolver in front of a +P charge has enough mass and momentum to penetrate a useful distance even after expanding effectively, and hence newer technologies designed to enable lighter bullets going faster to hang together are not required for it to be effective.

[Wingate's Hairbrush]

I keep coming back to the thought that perhaps a plain ol' cup and core 158-grain hollowpoint when launched from a service-size revolver in front of a +P charge has enough mass and momentum to penetrate a useful distance even after expanding effectively, and hence newer technologies designed to enable lighter bullets going faster to hang together are not required for it to be effective.

I'd wager there's a lot of truth to this and it's why the three biggies as well as boutiques like Buffalo Bore and Underwood still produce versions of the FBI load.

The question of momentum is significant. A while back there was a lot of discussion at the S&W Forum after members chronoed current versions of Winchester, Federal and Remington FBI loads versus same from decades back and came to the conclusion (rightly or wrongly I do not know) that current versions were watered down. At least one manufacturer also switched to a harder lead, the result being greatly diminished mushrooming.

So to your point, yes, if the load is to specs in charge and hardness.

For FBI loads, Buffalo Bore seems to be the one still doing it right; their standard pressure version linked above hits numbers that the old +P versions did, and they use a soft enough alloy. BB's +P version is more like a light Magnum.

[Totem Polar]

They did. Standard pressure version of the +P in OJ's link.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=110

Not hot enough.


Seriously, the “Goldilocks” load would be in between the two. JMO.
Cor-Bon “+P+” version that would reliably break 1000fps out of a 4” K-frame NY-1, and it was a good blend of pin-busting power and controllability.

[03RN]

I keep coming back to the thought that perhaps a plain ol' cup and core 158-grain hollowpoint when launched from a service-size revolver in front of a +P charge has enough mass and momentum to penetrate a useful distance even after expanding effectively, and hence newer technologies designed to enable lighter bullets going faster to hang together are not required for it to be effective.

Not sure if my thought process is right but if you see luckygunners clear gel test you can see that the 2" .357 158gr xtp is going 1089 and penetrates and expands. Not sure if that would work at 1000fps in organic gel but it gives a good starting point.

I know I can get 1000fps with a hardcast 158gr bullet. Not sure about a jhp.

[03RN]

Not hot enough.


Seriously, the “Goldilocks” load would be in between the two. JMO.
Cor-Bon “+P+” version that would reliably break 1000fps out of a 4” K-frame NY-1, and it was a good blend of pin-busting power and controllability.

Rimrock sells that bullet. 5.7gr be-86 will get you to 1000fps

[revchuck38]

I keep coming back to the thought that perhaps a plain ol' cup and core 158-grain hollowpoint when launched from a service-size revolver in front of a +P charge has enough mass and momentum to penetrate a useful distance even after expanding effectively, and hence newer technologies designed to enable lighter bullets going faster to hang together are not required for it to be effective.

I'd wager there's a lot of truth to this and it's why the three biggies as well as boutiques like Buffalo Bore and Underwood still produce versions of the FBI load.

The question of momentum is significant. A while back there was a lot of discussion at the S&W Forum after members chronoed current versions of Winchester, Federal and Remington FBI loads versus same from decades back and came to the conclusion (rightly or wrongly I do not know) that current versions were watered down. At least one manufacturer also switched to a harder lead, the result being greatly diminished mushrooming.

So to your point, yes, if the load is to specs in charge and hardness.

For FBI loads, Buffalo Bore seems to be the one still doing it right; their standard pressure version linked above hits numbers that the old +P versions did, and they use a soft enough alloy. BB's +P version is more like a light Magnum.

A "cup and core" hollowpoint is a jacketed hollowpoint, the various versions of the FBI load are non-jacketed. I haven't seen any tests where .38 Special +P 158-grain JHPs have expanded from service-size revolvers. Some of the 125-grain loads seem to do okay, though.

The current FBI loads may be a bit slower, but does it matter? As long as they penetrate deeply enough and expand while doing so, we should be good. I'm using the R-P version and trust me, it ain't a powder puff load.

Federal is the company that switched to a harder bullet. Prior to the switch, that's what I carried, but I changed to R-P after the switch.

[03RN]

A "cup and core" hollowpoint is a jacketed hollowpoint, the various versions of the FBI load are non-jacketed. I haven't seen any tests where .38 Special +P 158-grain JHPs have expanded from service-size revolvers. Some of the 125-grain loads seem to do okay, though.

The current FBI loads may be a bit slower, but does it matter? As long as they penetrate deeply enough and expand while doing so, we should be good. I'm using the R-P version and trust me, it ain't a powder puff load.

Federal is the company that switched to a harder bullet. Prior to the switch, that's what I carried, but I changed to R-P after the switch.

I think harder barriers pose problems for swc-hp bullets

[revchuck38]

I think harder barriers pose problems for swc-hp bullets

That's my understanding too.

[Wingate's Hairbrush]

A "cup and core" hollowpoint is a jacketed hollowpoint, the various versions of the FBI load are non-jacketed. I haven't seen any tests where .38 Special +P 158-grain JHPs have expanded from service-size revolvers. Some of the 125-grain loads seem to do okay, though.

The current FBI loads may be a bit slower, but does it matter? As long as they penetrate deeply enough and expand while doing so, we should be good. I'm using the R-P version and trust me, it ain't a powder puff load.

Federal is the company that switched to a harder bullet. Prior to the switch, that's what I carried, but I changed to R-P after the switch.

Ah. I didn't know "cup and core" and assumed. Thank you for the correction; I'll reflect it in the earlier post.

I have current Remington, Winchester and Buffalo Bore version of the FBI load and like them all; my fixed site Ks and Js do, too, for POA to POI, but I standardized a while ago on Gold Dot Short Barrel in .38+P.


EDIT: Outside the edit window for the earlier post.