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Thread: 2006 Vintage SIG GSR With Evolutionary Empirically Derived Improvements

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    2006 Vintage SIG GSR With Evolutionary Empirically Derived Improvements

    I have a 2006 vintage GSR XO, which several years ago I posted a fairly detailed discussion on-it's in the link in the body of this thread- I believe is one of the first XOs released. Back then the XO was a combination of two things:1) A slightly decontented SIG GSR, aimed for the price-point buyer or one just wanting a basic essential 1911, and 2) a vehicle for moving some GSR's with consmetic blemishes, but otherwise fully functional uncompromised components. Mine was purchased from a high volume local dealer in May of 2006, and was one of later beneficiaries from Matt McLearn's production efforts with SIGARMS.

    Our p-f thread(s) on 1911s have prompted me to discuss my journey on one of my particular 1911s here (non-withstanding the argument from some rabid 1911 purist afficianados that the SIG 1911s really aren't 1911s per se....) Jason Burton's 2019 Ballistic Radio podcast ( reposted here: http://ballisticradio.com/2019/06/04...may-19th-2019/
    was particulary instrumental in framing a lot of the things that I had done to the GSR (albeit the realization on my part was after the fact, as I heard the podcast for the first time just a couple of days ago, thanks to our p-f discussions...). Ultimately, I had what was the basis for an excellent gun, but with some massaging-some immediate, some empirically derived over tie and use. I've been the beneficiary of some excellent work and guidance, and associations over the years which have been vital for the ongoing process and results.

    It is what I term a Generation 2 GSR, in that it had the exceptionally high quality vendor-provided components, but after SIG took over manufacturing of the frames and barrels from Caspian and Storm Lake respectively. SIG had also belatedly realized that 1911 production, epecially 1911 production involving outsourced components required a higher quality trained assembly crew as such 1911s simply aren't a plug-and-play proposition. 2004 and 2005 production provided a fairly steep learning curve for SIG in that...

    My personal GSR has been thoroughly gone over by two eminently qualified senior gunsmiths at SIG; the late Mike Guarnieri, who was a personal friend of many years (although we never physically met), and Izhak Ariel, who at the time he worked on mine was the overall head of SIG assembly, including the custom shop.



    Additionally, mine has served as a long-term beta test bed for one of Bruce Gray GrayGuns' barstock replacement extractors, and is exclusively fed with a variety of series of Check-Mate Industry's 1911 magazines, as I'm one of their sponsored shooters and head of the factory team in the Seattle metro area. I've come to prefer their carbon steel hybrid feed lip, welded baseplate, skirted and dimpled followered 7 round magazines in a "traditional" welded baseplate 1911 magazine, and their carbon steel 8 round extended tube removable baseplate magazines, also with the skirted follower. My administratively loaded carry magazine has a bare baseplate for increased concealment; my reload welded baseplate carry magazines have screwed on polymer basepad additions for a more secure reload experience. In the 8 round extended tube magazines, I have come to also prefer carbon steel tubes, as I think they have a lesser tendency to permit feed lip splay over time and use; I have them in a variety of finishes.. I also like the Check-Mate produced P3LLC CerTac Cereberus 8 round stainless steel magazine, with a skirded, but non-dimpled follower and semi-wadcutter profile. feed lips. All of my 1911 magazines have high performance springs as well. If you want to maximize a drama-free magazine performance, these are the parameters I've found to work best for me.



    As was the case with many 1911s, and the early SIG GSR line in particular, mine required some initial break in and repairs-here's a link detailing my early years: https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/...44/#post-11014

    Recently, I've become associated with BH Spring Solutions, and am field testing a number of their springs and aftermarket components: this is an offshoot (every pun intended...) from my concurrent testing of their High Power components on my Mk III .40 High Power.

    Mark and Slav have sent me several things; Their 1911 5" Series 80 Spring Optimized Replacement Kit, their RDIH Extended Slide Stop/Release, their RDIH Ambidexterous Magazine Release system, and a set of their checkered walnut Master's Grips. Additionally, I've fairly recently replaced the OEM recoil spring plug with an EGW Extended Nose one, to match the OM EW Wide Flange bushing, all of which I'll discuss in greater detail.







    Overall, I consider the Generation 2 GSR to be a superb entry- to intermediate level 1911, capable of exceptional performance, with very high quality components-mine was produced prior to the later component decontenting and lowered composition quality (i.e., Israeli and Indian mid-level MIM components). For a brief period (2005 to 2007 at the likely latest) a GSR was one of the best values in a 1911 available in my opinion. They offered, in addition to the high quality component set, a beveled slide and quality 25 LPI frontstrap checkering (the checkering started with the Generation 2 guns-the original Caspian frame guns had vertical serrations only)

    Some of the OEM components were a bit controversial, such as the external extractor, the firing pin safety retention system (aka the manhole cover on the right side of the slide) and the Caspian vertical shark fin grip safety.

    I have no problem with an external extractor on a 1911, provided that it's made of high quality sufficiently tensile steel-the original ones were of softer stainless steel, noted for their relative brittleness, hook chipping or breaking off; replacements were made frst by Bruce Gray, and then ultimately an improved OEM one by SIG themselves which completely resolved the issues). The "manhole cover" was a somewhat odd way of securing the FPS, but it worked, providing the cover didn't come loose (it was supposed to be Red Locktited in place by SIG, but apparently that wasn't always the case...). In later SIG 1911s, it was replaced with a faux extractor stub at the right rear of the slde which has worked without incident. The Caspian "shark fin" grip safety was reviled by some,both for it's non-tradtional appeareance and feel. I personally am a huge fan of it, as wherever your grip on it is, it'll effectively deactivate the grip safety as designed. I can see where griping it tightly for extended periods of time might be slightly uncomfortable, but that's been a total non-issue for me in normal carry, IDPA and range/competition use over the years.



    Another cosmetic change I made to mine was to replace the OEM checkered recoil spring plug with one of EGW's checkered long-nosed ones, to provide a match with the OEM EGW wide flange bushing. SIG's OEM plug was a standard one, which provided a bit of a stepped appeareance between the plug and flange. The OEM one worked just fine, I was just going for a minor aesthetic improvement. Interestingly, the EGW replacement used for both 5" and 4.25" slides is the shorter one optimized for the 4.25"-I checked, and they deliberately use the shorter one for both barrel lengths, as there's sufficient length in it to provide adequate support and performance for both.



    BH Spring Solutions has come up with some exceptional quality replacement springs for the High Power and recently has branched out to the 1911 platform. Over the years, I've had a variety of recoil springs in my GSR; in originally came with a Wolff 18.5' as OEM, and I experimented with various weights of conventional and variable rate springs, settling on the Wolff 15' conventional for my GSR (I prefer standard pressure 230 gr cartridges for all uses). BH Spring Solutions recommends observing the empty extracted case ejection patterns ad distances to determine and tune your recoil spring selection, with a 6'-8' distance with consistant patterning being recommended as ideal with standard pressure loads. While my 15' Wolff (which had about 500 rounds on it) performed acceptably withing these parameters, I found that the 16' BH SS spring patterned better, with consistant 6' ejection, so it's become my standard recoil spring.

    BH Spring Solutions also as a close relationship with Leon Hubert, a retierd senior FN engineer, and owner of RDIH, a Belginan company producing high quality aftermarket components for High Powers, 1911s, and other Eurocentric platforms. I've found his components to be exceptionally wel conceived and very well manufactured. While I was pleased with the OEM Greider slide stop and SIG magazine release, I wanted to try RDIH's 1911 extended slide stop/release and ambidexterous magazine release, being very favorably impressed with his efforts on the High Power with these components.



    As in my High Power, they work, and do so without any operational compromises or hiccups. The ambi mag release system by necessity utilizes a slightly lighter actuating spring, but it's not so light as to induce unintended magazine ejection. The right side lever is just that-in mechanically levers the release of the magazine from the retention catch. I have found that it works better with 7 round welded baseplate, r 8 round rxtended tube magazines; 8 round welded baseplate magazines' spring compression makes it a bit more difficult to activate the release, particularly from the right side release shelf lever. It does not protrude excessively, so there's no issues with holstering or in use-it simply gives you another magazine release technique option if desired or situationally dictated.



    And then there's grips. Here are the grips that I've had on my GSR:

    From left to right, VCD, Ergo Extreme, Magpul MOE, and SIG Dymondwood:



    And now the grips I'm currently running, matte checkered single-diamond walnut burl grips from BH Spring Solutions:





    Here's the JonInWA grip analysis: Frankly, the OEM polymer Ergo Extreme grips and the VCD aggressively stippled polymer grips and the Magpul polymet textured grips perform superbly, and inexpensively. If it's simply operational effeciency you're seeking, either of these three are an excellent choice with the Magpuls being an exception value, at they cost only $19.95, and provide an exceptional laminar wedge profile, excellent texturing, and an aggressive thumb scoop for reaching the magazine release. The VCD's provide the best overall grip quality, and the Ergos are close behind. A requirement for any of my 1911 grips is that they provide adequate plunger tube support. I received my introduction to the VCD from Todd Green's experimentation on his Jason Burton 1911-he concluded that the combination of the improved grippability provided by the VCD grip stippling texture combined with an orange front sight was both quantifiable and paradigm-changing. I concur, but if you're on a tight budget, the MagPul grips are excellent, and a huge value. One warning caveat regarding David Barnes' VCD stippling texture: the edges can be sharp. If they tend to carve up your concealment garnment/sweater/jacket, you might want to lightly sand them down....

    However, sometimes it just nice to get something that provides a bit of an upgraded look aesthetically, which is what the BH SS offering does. The walnuut figuring and checkering is excellent, and the left grip features a fairly subtle thumb scoop which I've found effective, and the right grip features a subtle shelf protrusion, like a gentle ridge, which fits my grip beautifully. My preference is to use Challis rubber O rings on my grips/grip screws to prevent screw back out under firing vibrations.

    Sight wise, as I mentioned in the link article, I replaced the OEM Champion rear sight with a genuine Novak black wide notch (.140 notch) to pair with the OEM .125 Nvak contrast sight, which came with a white dot. I've modified that to provide a flourescent orange front sight face, with a dark blue dot; that provides both speedy acquisition and accuracy.





    So there you have it. My GSR is definitely used, usually in a Blade Tech kydex IWB, but I'm eagerly awaiting one of Privateer Leather's OWB holsters made specifically for it. Eventually, I'd consider replacing the OEM spray-on, bake-in teflon finish with a higher tech nitron or nDLC finish, but the OEM finish provides adequate protection to the underlying stainless steel slide and frame, and has acquired "character" through honest use.

    In a time of constrained ammunition availability, and possible upcoming magazine limit regulations, the 1911 is both of continued intrinsic use and value. Over time, I've added some incrimental improvements based on my empirical experience that I'd like to think comprise some worthwhile upgrades to Matt McLearn's and SIGARMS' original platform.



    Best, Jon
    Last edited by JonInWA; 12-29-2020 at 01:18 PM.

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    The Sig 1911s were always sort of the red headed step child of the 1911 world. Try as I might, I never could appreciate them. Tim Herron still has a 9mm version that he used for classes and demos when I took a class with him. I think he made GM with one.

    The external extractor was my biggest hangup with the gun. I have the absolute worst luck with 1911s from the factory. I know for sure if I got a Sig or S&W they'd have inadequate extractor function and no way to exchange them, but now that EGW offers replacements it's not such a big deal.

    I briefly considered one with a traditional slide, but for red headed step child 1911s I went the other way and bought one with a polymer frame.

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    The Sig 1911s were always sort of the red headed step child of the 1911 world. Try as I might, I never could appreciate them. Tim Herron still has a 9mm version that he used for classes and demos when I took a class with him. I think he made GM with one.

    The external extractor was my biggest hangup with the gun. I have the absolute worst luck with 1911s from the factory. I know for sure if I got a Sig or S&W they'd have inadequate extractor function and no way to exchange them, but now that EGW offers replacements it's not such a big deal.

    I briefly considered one with a traditional slide, but for red headed step child 1911s I went the other way and bought one with a polymer frame.

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk
    The problem with the OEM one that they initially used was that it was stainless steel, which was subject to chipping and/or fracturing. Bruce Gray made a replacement, and I believe subsequently did some small-scale production of, but then SIG themselves (or SIG and EGW-but I'm unsure of that; it's supposition on my part, and unverified) re-architected the extractor, both materially and design-wise, and I haven't heard of complaints with it since.

    Generally, my hypothesis is that all things being equal (quality of design, springing, materials and manufacturing QC) I think an external extractor is simpler, easier to set up and longer-lived. On 1911s, not too many manufacturers have chosen to go that route, and fewer successfully-SIG and Smith and Wesson are the two that immediately come to mind. While I've only put 1900 rounds (ironically, as of December 19th, exactly 1900 rounds) through mine since Bruce Gray installed his extractor in mine (and mine was part of his beta test), I've literally had zero extraction or extraction-related issues. FWIW, I only use standard-pressure 230 gr factory ammunition in mine-usually Sellier & Bellot; for carry/duty use I prefer Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Saber, Federal Hydra Shok and Hornaday Critical Duty.

    Best, Jon

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    Good read, John. It has given me insights into my own circa 2015 Sig 1911’s. In each I replaced the slide stop with a WC part and the extractor with the EGW part, both direct drop-ins. The slide released fixed a failure to lock open after the last round in some mags. The factory extractor worked sufficiently, but the EGW part is a quality part for a very important function. They both have functioned reliably, tho this is just 2 data points. Are you aware of any other parts that would be good candidates for replacement (MIM)? Looking forward to other feedback in this thread.

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    The Beast-Grip Wise...

    And here it is with p-f member David Barnes' VCD grips, in Olive (basically I chose Olive to commemorate my Army service but hey, they look pretty decent-well, as decent as one of David's creations can...). Here's a link to his site:
    http://www.vcdgrips.com/

    These grips will win absolutely zero prizes for aesthetics. But their grippability is absolutely superb, something that Todd Green specifically commented on and lauded them for. And for $45 'Murrican, they're a great value.

    As I've mentioned before, when you get them, carefully consider what clothing items will come into contact and rub against them; you may want to lightly sand the crater edges down. Let me put it this way: If you use these grips and your cover garnment is the expensive cashmere sweater your wife or significant other gave you as a special gift, these grips will eat them for lunch. And trust me, "Honey, my VCD grips carved holes in it" will not likely play out to a happy domestic ending....

    Despite that, the grips are actually quite comfortable to hold in use. For a duty gun, they're flat out superb. I use a Challis O ring between the grip and each of the screws to mitigate against screw loosening and backing out in use. I much prefer them to Blue Locktite, especially when it comes to removing the screws. Blue Locktite isn't always that easy to break their seal...and burred and mangled screw heads can quickly morph into a regretful trip to one's gunsmith...

    Much as I appreciate the aesthetics of the BH SS grips, and their feel, I'm going to revert back to the VCDs for a bit; in my last match, I did not fare well in a weak-hand only stage, and I think that the VCD's grippability will be of tangible assistance. Now I just have to place myself on concealed garnment alert...these suckers look hungry...

    Best, Jon



    Last edited by JonInWA; 12-29-2020 at 07:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwolf View Post
    Good read, John. It has given me insights into my own circa 2015 Sig 1911’s. In each I replaced the slide stop with a WC part and the extractor with the EGW part, both direct drop-ins. The slide released fixed a failure to lock open after the last round in some mags. The factory extractor worked sufficiently, but the EGW part is a quality part for a very important function. They both have functioned reliably, tho this is just 2 data points. Are you aware of any other parts that would be good candidates for replacement (MIM)? Looking forward to other feedback in this thread.
    Be totally objective in your anticipated use of the gun. For casual occassional range use and some carry, if things are working well, I'd leave 'em alone. For harder use, such as duty, more regular and extensive shooting sessions and training, I'd suggest taking a very hard look at virtually every internal component. For the first several years, the GSR/Revolution was a bit of a flagship loss leader for SIG. After Cohen took over, things quickly became brutally pragmatic in terms of the bottom line, and the expensive, high quality aftermarket components spec'ced by Matt McLearn gradually, then more speedily with time went by the wayside, reportedly replaced with offshore MIM components, first from Israel and then from India. There's been some good testimony from a former SIG employee now working with one of the high-end aftermarket outfits that the MIM quality was only mid-level, and that there were additional QC issues (and not just with SIG's 1911s...). Any of SIG's 1911s produced after 2007/2008 should be examined component by component if you truly want it to be a hard use 1911 with longevity.

    Here's what I'd suggest: Discuss your specific 1911 with a qualified 1911 gunsmith, and with a copy of Brownells/EGWs/Wilson Combats/Ed Brown's/Harrison's catalogues (well, web pages) in hand, select your ideal components. Then have your gunsmith fit and install them, because in all liklihood, things will not just drop into place-and even if they do, they still should be examined and fitted for the best possible match-up with the other components that they interface with, directly and/or indirectly. A 1911 quite simply isn't a Glock; unless you're a knowledgeable budding (or actual) gunsmith with access to the proper and necessary tools and expertise, 1911 gun Barbie should be left to responsible adults. Otherwise, there's an excellent chance you'll be providing a fertile feeding ground for cascading problems once you start substituting various components, and get to play the "1911 Wack-A-Mole Problem Resolution Game."

    Listen to Jason Burton's comments on the podcast I provided a link to earlier in the thread. It'll give you the right perspective and mindset.

    Best, Jon

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    It's not complicated to get a 1911 that runs.

    It's just not something you can expect from a factory gun. The two 1911s I've had that passed the 10-8 extractor test out of the box were an Alchemy Custom Prime in 9mm, which was about 3 grand, a RRA Poly in .45 which was about 900 dollars.

    The Alchemy because it was a custom gun built by a master. The RRA because the metal versions of their guns are gonna go for used Wilson Combat money and they apply a similar degree of hand fitting to the important bits.

    But Kimber, Colt, Springfield...almost no factory turned out 1911 has hand fitted parts, and some of those parts (especially the extractor) MUST be hand fit.

    You can get away with sloppy fit on almost everything, and compared to my Prime, basically every 1911 I own is fit sloppy (even the two I've built. They can shoot groups of less than 2 inches at 25 yards, but compared to a gun built by a professional, they're sloppy guns)

    But you will be punished for a poorly done extractor when you have a gun whose operation was designed on using that extractor to control the round into and out of the chamber, as opposed to a modern external extractor which can just snap over the rim of the cartridge when it finishes pushing the round into the barrel.

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonInWA View Post
    Be totally objective in your anticipated use of the gun. For casual occassional range use and some carry, if things are working well, I'd leave 'em alone. For harder use, such as duty, more regular and extensive shooting sessions and training, I'd suggest taking a very hard look at virtually every internal component. For the first several years, the GSR/Revolution was a bit of a flagship loss leader for SIG. After Cohen took over, things quickly became brutally pragmatic in terms of the bottom line, and the expensive, high quality aftermarket components spec'ced by Matt McLearn gradually, then more speedily with time went by the wayside, reportedly replaced with offshore MIM components, first from Israel and then from India. There's been some good testimony from a former SIG employee now working with one of the high-end aftermarket outfits that the MIM quality was only mid-level, and that there were additional QC issues (and not just with SIG's 1911s...). Any of SIG's 1911s produced after 2007/2008 should be examined component by component if you truly want it to be a hard use 1911 with longevity.

    Here's what I'd suggest: Discuss your specific 1911 with a qualified 1911 gunsmith, and with a copy of Brownells/EGWs/Wilson Combats/Ed Brown's/Harrison's catalogues (well, web pages) in hand, select your ideal components. Then have your gunsmith fit and install them, because in all liklihood, things will not just drop into place-and even if they do, they still should be examined and fitted for the best possible match-up with the other components that they interface with, directly and/or indirectly. A 1911 quite simply isn't a Glock; unless you're a knowledgeable budding (or actual) gunsmith with access to the proper and necessary tools and expertise, 1911 gun Barbie should be left to responsible adults. Otherwise, there's an excellent chance you'll be providing a fertile feeding ground for cascading problems once you start substituting various components, and get to play the "1911 Wack-A-Mole Problem Resolution Game."

    Listen to Jason Burton's comments on the podcast I provided a link to earlier in the thread. It'll give you the right perspective and mindset.

    Best, Jon
    Thanks a lot for the advice on the MIM parts in the Sig. I would prefer all of my guns to be Duty level, but I do need to consider cost/benefit, since my primary carry guns are Beretta 92’s and PX4’s. The gunsmith at the range is excellent with the 1911 & is my trusted advisor. Don’t want to cause any further drift away from your original post. Good reading is ahead.
    Last edited by mwolf; 12-29-2020 at 09:45 PM.

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    Todd Green's Discussion RE VCD Grips and Orange (Shocker, I Know...) Front Sight Face

    I actually inserted this first in our other concurrently-running 1911 thread, really meaning to plunk it down here...

    http://pistol-training.com/archives/7270

    The VCD grips and orange front sight face really provided significant and quantifiable improvements for him, surprising himself, as he was initially pretty skeptical. I spoke with David Barnes yesterday, and he has a set on its way to me with a scoop on the left grip to expedite access to the magazine release. That will make it more of an oranges-to-oranges comparison with the Magpul and BH SS grips.

    Best, Jon

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonInWA View Post
    I actually inserted this first in our other concurrently-running 1911 thread, really meaning to plunk it down here...

    http://pistol-training.com/archives/7270

    The VCD grips and orange front sight face really provided significant and quantifiable improvements for him, surprising himself, as he was initially pretty skeptical. I spoke with David Barnes yesterday, and he has a set on its way to me with a scoop on the left grip to expedite access to the magazine release. That will make it more of an oranges-to-oranges comparison with the Magpul and BH SS grips.

    Best, Jon
    I’ve read Todd’s journal about the Springer multiple times. His experiences are what convinced me to stop worrying and dive into the 1911 as a serious use pistol. I’ve also been a convert to VCD’s thanks to him. I never would have given them a second look otherwise. Personal experience they flat out work.

    I never cracked the code on the best concealed carry set up for a 5” all steel 1911 though. And now I’ve gone the opposite direction and started focusing on single stack plastic guns. I really want to find out how much performance I’m giving up compared to a 1911.
    “If you know the way broadly you will see it in everything." - Miyamoto Musashi

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