45-70 Gut Check

[SCCY Marshal]

Primary Mission: Black bear and moose within short sightlines.

Secondary Mission: Recurring range time to keep the shooter's eye in.

Shooter: Twiggy young teen with a preference for iron sights and enthusiasm for shotguns and classic, low pressure big game cartridges. Plays brass so keeping muzzle blast down to that much better preserve hearing would be a bonus.

Limitations: Prefer to conserve powder in these times. Keep load most capable yet staid enough to avoid beating up a young shoulder. Will be casting and powder coating the bullets at home with a classically soft lead.

Gun: Ruger No. 1 with slightly shortened barrel and stock by a previous owner. Will be getting a custom front sight mounted somehow and a Skinner rear peep.

Contextual Thoughts: Keep velocity easy to save powder. Lead is cheap enough to harvest from the public range backstop so preserving that less important. Make up for "low velocity" with bullet weight of 405 grains.

Load Specifics: Aim for 1,200 to 1,300 feet per second with a 405 grain cast lead boolit. This should give near-to-classic cartridge performance with hige safety margin in receiver strength. Roughly 1,200 to about 1,500 foot pounds muzzle energy. More than flat enough trajectory for the shots to be encountered. Sufficient oomph for swamp donkey while trying to minimize meat loss unlike his uncle who wrecked a good portion of both bear front shoulder with a zippier load from a Guide Gun on one notable occasion.

Possible Secondary Load: Maximum charge of Trail Boss which should give about 1,000fps for roughly 800 foot pounds muzzle energy as a lighter range load and to conserve the hunting powder. Allow the rifle to be a back-up whitetail option if the primary 243 Win. goes down.


Given that components are precious and this cartridge is a voluminous eater, anybody mind reviewing the plan for me? Second set of eyes before committing would be much appreciated. I am open to comments to tweak the plan. I have until mid-summer to get this sorted and kid on the range practicing.

[GJM]

If I liked that kid, and bear and moose were on the schedule, I would go Marlin lever in 45-70.

[Duelist]

As a musician who hunts, get the kid electronic ear pro. I take *no* shots in the field or at the range without at least a pair of foam ear plugs; hunting, electronic ear pro is how I roll. There is no bird flying nor animal walking worth a bit of hearing damage for me.

SD, I’ll do what I have to do. Hunting, I don’t have to go without, and it’s always an event I plan, so I wear the ear pro.

[JTMcC]

As a #1 in 45-70 owner it seems odd to me that someone shortened the barrel, they are very short to start with due to the action. I bet that's a handy gun.

But you seem to have it figured out well for the intended use. I would consider 300-350 gr bullets for the ranges you listed but really it's hard to go wrong with 405's.
I would buy or make the youngster a few dummy rounds to practice reloads. People get surprisingly quick with practice. For a very limited number of people, it's great fun to run a single shot fast (?!) relatively speaking

Those little bands that hold 2 extra cartridges horizontal just in front of the receiver (I'm sure they have a real name but I don't know what it is) are nice as are butt cuff ammo holders.

[Half Moon]

Primary Mission: Black bear and moose within short sightlines.

Secondary Mission: Recurring range time to keep the shooter's eye in.

Shooter: Twiggy young teen with a preference for iron sights and enthusiasm for shotguns and classic, low pressure big game cartridges. Plays brass so keeping muzzle blast down to that much better preserve hearing would be a bonus.

Limitations: Prefer to conserve powder in these times. Keep load most capable yet staid enough to avoid beating up a young shoulder. Will be casting and powder coating the bullets at home with a classically soft lead.

Gun: Ruger No. 1 with slightly shortened barrel and stock by a previous owner. Will be getting a custom front sight mounted somehow and a Skinner rear peep.

Contextual Thoughts: Keep velocity easy to save powder. Lead is cheap enough to harvest from the public range backstop so preserving that less important. Make up for "low velocity" with bullet weight of 405 grains.

Load Specifics: Aim for 1,200 to 1,300 feet per second with a 405 grain cast lead boolit. This should give near-to-classic cartridge performance with hige safety margin in receiver strength. Roughly 1,200 to about 1,500 foot pounds muzzle energy. More than flat enough trajectory for the shots to be encountered. Sufficient oomph for swamp donkey while trying to minimize meat loss unlike his uncle who wrecked a good portion of both bear front shoulder with a zippier load from a Guide Gun on one notable occasion.

Possible Secondary Load: Maximum charge of Trail Boss which should give about 1,000fps for roughly 800 foot pounds muzzle energy as a lighter range load and to conserve the hunting powder. Allow the rifle to be a back-up whitetail option if the primary 243 Win. goes down.


Given that components are precious and this cartridge is a voluminous eater, anybody mind reviewing the plan for me? Second set of eyes before committing would be much appreciated. I am open to comments to tweak the plan. I have until mid-summer to get this sorted and kid on the range practicing.

For what it's worth, I'm skeptical of the skinner peep. I haven't used one but generally a peep should be close-ish to the eye for quick pick up of the sights and the eye to automatically center it. Distant peeps like on a Springfield 1903 have always seemed slow and not good for accuracy under time pressure. I'm pretty sure there are tang peeps for the Number 1 ( could be wrong though). I'd go with that or an open sight. (I think Maple Syrup Actual and I briefly discussed his experience with Skinner peeps before. Tried @-ing him in but need to figure out how to do that with a multi-part name)

[fatdog]

I agree with GJM on the Marlin being a more pleasant platform. The trailboss load is a winner for practice, I use it with 405gr cast MO bullet company. I punch it up to 1250 with the same bullets, for the rounds I will carry in the wilderness with the Marlin guide gun. I am not willing to endure the hotter loads in that cartridge. I do like the peep sight but that is based on long experience shooting one in competition, it is not the best for everybody.

What is such a contrast to me for this cartridge is how pleasant the real black powder 45-70 loads are. Not so good for your intended hunting purpose, but my BP "carbine loads" of about 57gr 2F behind a 405gr hollow base are subjectively much easier to manage in terms of recoil and still hit that 1150 to 1250 range depending on the platform. I can shoot those all day in a trapdoor or sharps.

Said youngster might enjoy shooting a few of those BP loads in recreational mode and the cleaning task for a Ruger 1 would not be materially worse than cleaning another single shot. BP cleaning in a lever gun is major major headache land to me.

[willie]

I suggest duplicating the trapdoor Springfield 405 grain load, installing one of the better recoil pads, and selecting a different rear sight. I have the Skinner on a Henry 44 Magnum. It does not lend itself to repeated adjusting like when experimenting with loads. If the front height is not correct, then the sight might be cranked all the way up. Elevation adjustment is screwing the rear peep up and down and then fastening in place with a minute set screw torqued against the threads of the post that you are screwing up and down. I do not see the fit between the shooter and the selected rifle and caliber. Instead of the aperture rear sight, I would put a low power scope on the rifle. A shotgun scope would do nicely and would eliminate aiming error. The aperture sight requires that the shooter practice more to learn a minimum skill level as opposed to learning to shoot a scoped rifle. I have two 45-70 rifles, a single shot and lever action. Both kick like hell.

[Rick R]

For a Ruger I’d suggest the NECG peep.

https://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/....php?prod=4197

They may also have a banded front sight base to fit your barrel depending on diameter.

I’ve used the Lee 405gr cast bullet, it’s simple, molds are cheap and accuracy was minute of deer. I’m much more impressed with either the 360gr or 405gr NOE bullet design and mold quality.

I’ve used Unique and 2400 to get to the velocities you’re looking at. My wife killed her first deer with the 405gr Lee over 15.0gr of Unique. I’ve come to prefer 2400 because a double charge will overfill a .45/70 case. Recoil with either powder at the levels you’re looking at feels like a 20ga shotgun from the Marlin.

Edited to add,
If you could source one and know a competent gunsmith to drill/tap one hole, the peep sight used on a Ruger Scout Rifle might make a good match.

[SCCY Marshal]

Earpro is covered but I'm not one to trust single-layer of so relatively mellow report is still desired.

As for the Skinner, one is on my No. 1, Winchester 94AE, and his Henry .22 levergun so familiarity and shared allen keys is a plus. The NECG rear is an option but ugly and we both already get along with the Skinner. Not to say the adjustment is at all refined.

A shotgun scope is not out of the question but he really prefers irons. He also hates keeping snow off glass in tight cover.

As a #1 in 45-70 owner it seems odd to me that someone shortened the barrel, they are very short to start with due to the action. I bet that's a handy gun.

Our woods are thick, snaggy, and all on the side of some mountain or other. Someone had a shotgun scope on it so I've no doubt it was set up as a rifle for bear briars and moose bogs. Actually, the scope on the youngest's 450 Bushmaster Ruger American originally came on my No. 1 and was handy since I'd immediately swapped on a peep.

Open to suggestions for a double cattridge horizontal shellholder. They'd be out of the way, allow amidextrous handling with regards to cheek weld, be close to the balance point, and weigh less than carrying more cartridges onboard.

Appreciate all the input, so far. Even if a levergun is out of the budget.

[JTMcC]

Earpro is covered but I'm not one to trust single-layer of so relatively mellow report is still desired.

As for the Skinner, one is on my No. 1, Winchester 94AE, and his Henry .22 levergun so familiarity and shared allen keys is a plus. The NECG rear is an option but ugly and we both already get along with the Skinner. Not to say the adjustment is at all refined.

A shotgun scope is not out of the question but he really prefers irons. He also hates keeping snow off glass in tight cover.



Our woods are thick, snaggy, and all on the side of some mountain or other. Someone had a shotgun scope on it so I've no doubt it was set up as a rifle for bear briars and moose bogs. Actually, the scope on the youngest's 450 Bushmaster Ruger American originally came on my No. 1 and was handy since I'd immediately swapped on a peep.

Open to suggestions for a double cattridge horizontal shellholder. They'd be out of the way, allow amidextrous handling with regards to cheek weld, be close to the balance point, and weigh less than carrying more cartridges onboard.

Appreciate all the input, so far. Even if a levergun is out of the budget.

I'm wanting to try one of these but dang I can't convince myself to stick velcro on what I consider a beautiful gun:

https://www.shortactionprecision.com...o-round-holder

This I could maybe live with:

https://www.beartooth-products.com/c...cart-sideshell

Hill People Gear make nice butt cuffs but if he doesn't want to go that route there are carriers that hold 2-5 rounds that go on your wrist or forearm.