Spare carry mags? Really?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I recall Ken Hammond commenting on not having extra ammo in the Trolley Mall shooting: https://www.lawofficer.com/officer-k...lake-shootout/

KH: Absolutely. You need to be able to access your badge. I couldn t get to mine during the incident. You need to carry an extra magazine. That was one of my first thoughts after I fired that I had very limited ammo. I give so much credit to the Salt Lake City PD for their rapid response. They [arrived] in just a couple of minutes, and they saved my life and a lot of other lives.

Sadly, his career didn't go well for other reasons.

I also recall that during the Westgate Mall attack in Kenya, the civilians who went in (while the locals stayed out) commented that they didn't have extra mags and in retrospect this was a bad idea.

While the chance of being in a terrorist attack is like being hit by lightning (check out 4320 Ridge Lea Road in Amherst, NY - where Glenn was hit by ....), it does happen.

[TGS]

I recall Ken Hammond commenting on not having extra ammo in the Trolley Mall shooting: https://www.lawofficer.com/officer-k...lake-shootout/

That's a good one, Glenn. I hadn't seen that before, thanks for sharing.

There's three of these similar instances happening that I'm aware of....the one you mentioned, the one mentioned my @TC215, and there's also the NCIS Special Agent at the DC Navy Yard shooting. For anyone unfamiliar, and NCIS agent went in with his SIG P239 and no reload. We are lucky to have him on "our" side and his actions undoubtedly saved lives as he provided space and time for victims to flee, but in the end he had to go outside and hand-jam his mag with boxed ammo to go back in as he failed to neutralize the threat. While most active shooters give up at the first presence of resistance, some don't.....and you don't need to be in Mumbai or Nairobi to find out.

Now, some people say, "Well they're LEOs, it doesn't apply". The Lucky Gunner article mentioned by @JCS goes a step further, and not only says that we "cherry pick" from LEOs, but that the criminals we face as LEOs are different than the criminals faced by armed citizens...which is bull that we've addressed on the forum before. If we ignored the experiences of LEOs acting in a minimally armed, off-duty capacity, that would actually be applying preference/bias as opposed to including them in the discussion...not the other way around.

Off-duty, I'm mostly carrying a Glock 19 with a reload. Sometimes a Glock 26, or even as light as a single stack subcompact 380 or revolver, like when going for a walk in our neighborhood. Anyone can feel free to piss on my grave if I bite the dust because I didn't have enough reloads but what I'm not going to engage in is mental gymnastics to rationalize insecurity surrounding my decision, or mask my insecurity by calling anyone here paranoid because they are objectively more prepared than I am.

[TC215]

I recall Ken Hammond commenting on not having extra ammo in the Trolley Mall shooting: https://www.lawofficer.com/officer-k...lake-shootout/



Sadly, his career didn't go well for other reasons.

I also recall that during the Westgate Mall attack in Kenya, the civilians who went in (while the locals stayed out) commented that they didn't have extra mags and in retrospect this was a bad idea.

While the chance of being in a terrorist attack is like being hit by lightning (check out 4320 Ridge Lea Road in Amherst, NY - where Glenn was hit by ....), it does happen.

That's a good one, Glenn. I hadn't seen that before, thanks for sharing.

There's three of these similar instances happening that I'm aware of....the one you mentioned, the one mentioned my @TC215, and there's also the NCIS Special Agent at the DC Navy Yard shooting. For anyone unfamiliar, and NCIS agent went in with his SIG P239 and no reload. We are lucky to have him on "our" side and his actions undoubtedly saved lives as he provided space and time for victims to flee, but in the end he had to go outside and hand-jam his mag with boxed ammo to go back in as he failed to neutralize the threat. While most active shooters give up at the first presence of resistance, some don't.....and you don't need to be in Mumbai or Nairobi to find out.

Now, some people say, "Well they're LEOs, it doesn't apply". The Lucky Gunner article mentioned by @JCS goes a step further, and not only says that we "cherry pick" from LEOs, but that the criminals we face as LEOs are different than the criminals faced by armed citizens...which is bull that we've addressed on the forum before. If we ignored the experiences of LEOs acting in a minimally armed, off-duty capacity, that would actually be applying preference/bias as opposed to including them in the discussion...not the other way around.

Off-duty, I'm mostly carrying a Glock 19 with a reload. Sometimes a Glock 26, or even as light as a single stack subcompact 380 or revolver, like when going for a walk in our neighborhood. Anyone can feel free to piss on my grave if I bite the dust because I didn't have enough reloads but what I'm not going to engage in is mental gymnastics to rationalize insecurity surrounding my decision, or mask my insecurity by calling anyone here paranoid because they are objectively more prepared than I am.

Yes, Ken Hammond was carrying a Kimber Officer's model (6+1). He also did not have the magazine loaded to capacity, in a misguided attempt to help the magazine spring. I use this incident when teaching "plainclothes officer survival."

EDIT: Should have read the link first, that article covers all that.

I am friends with one of the SWAT officers that responded to that shooting. They do not have very good things to say about Ken Hammond.

[TGS]

Yes, Ken Hammond was carrying a Kimber Officer's model (6+1). He also did not have the magazine loaded to capacity, in a misguided attempt to help the magazine spring. I use this incident when teaching "plainclothes officer survival."

EDIT: Should have read the link first, that article covers all that.

I am friends with one of the SWAT officers that responded to that shooting. They do not have very good things to say about Ken Hammond.

Figures that he got an award, then.

One of our shitbird investigative specialists got an award from FLEOA for "Investigator of the Year", and then got hired by SSA-OIG as an 1811 where he was Giglio'd in his first year.

Irony.

[Borderland]

Is this thread really happening?

I always carry at least (10) 8 rd mags to make up for the low capacity.

I won't have a prayer if this happens to me..

https://www.police1.com/officer-shoo...BbLYpnqqHxwMq/

[Cookie Monster]

Reminds me sitting at the Table at Thunder Ranch in Oregon. Clint taking about ammo and spare mags. A 1911 mag thumps to the table, then another, and another, and another. I think for a total of 5 or 6 with an OTF in there as well. And remember this man is at his house basically at TR. He wasn’t carrying that many for effect. That is how he rolls.

I am not the man he is but I am figuring he’s got a point.

[LittleLebowski]

Dude your verbiage and style is painfully obvious that it’s meant to put people back on their heels. The above paragraph looks like a parody. This isn’t LightFighter. G’damn.

This is a tech forum, let’s keep it so.

[paherne]

I have a number of ways that I carry, depending where I am going or doing. Walking at the park or doing off-duty stuff near my house, When I am not carrying a gun because I don't expect trouble, I usually only carry a S&W MP 340 and a speedstrip with Gold Dot 135 grainers + a folding knife. I have a number of seedy places I have to take the wife for medical appointments and such in the big city to the north and I will pocket carry the 340 with speedstrip and IWB a G43 with an extra mag in a pocket carrier on my off-side, along with a folding knife. If I am doing something that I can't get out of and is in a dangerous area, I carry a G19 in a JM Custom kydex OWB and two spare mags off-side in an Aker paddle carrier.

I think many of the posters on here do not live in urban/suburban areas where you will most likely face a hostile crowd if you defend yourself using a firearm. That's my reality.

[Jeff S.]

I’ve spent a lot of time and money becoming somewhat proficient at drawing and shooting a pistol, including magazine changes. Seems strange not to carry the tools I spend so much time trying to master.

[Yung]

I recall Active Self Protection saying at one point he had never reviewed a scenario in which a spare mag would’ve made a difference. Does anyone else recall this?

Personally, I don’t carry a spare mag and probably never will. I’m willing to take the chance. It’s a risk assessment and one I’m comfortable with as a civilian.

It is one of the main points in John Correia's flagship 'Lessons Learned' lecture. He usually follows that up with the fact he carries a larger capacity pistol.

Claude Werner and others have also pointed out breaking contact as a higher priority than military or police encounters.

When I was in a class with Jeff Gonzales, he somewhat tersely stated that carrying spare ammunition but not having a handheld flashlight was not a wise decision.

Generally, when I see or hear this question being asked, the deeper discussion I'm really looking for is along the lines of whether other tools (i.e. light, medical, OC) and their significance have been considered if someone's physicality/wardrobe/lifestyle allows. For myself, carrying an extra magazine in addition to everything else is very doable, but if I was someone else and that meant eliminating a reload in order to free up real estate, then that makes sense to me.

Of course, this also means thinking about additional training for these additional tools, otherwise it risks returning to a fixation on equipment that I was hoping to avoid in the first place when I was only thinking about the gun.