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Thread: 3 Hamilton police officers have knife wounds to face and head after downtown altercat

  1. #1

    3 Hamilton police officers have knife wounds to face and head after downtown altercat

    The officers attempted to Tase the man, Bessette said, but it "didn't seem to be very effective."

    Police tweeted that they answered a call about a "person in crisis" at James Street North and Cannon Street East. Const. Krista-Lee Ernst wouldn't confirm specifics, but said the officers had "stab and slash wounds" on the face and head. Dave Thompson from Hamilton Paramedic Service confirmed that paramedics treated four people for "various injuries." "Three patients were subsequently transported to hospital," he said in an email. "Three of the patients assessed being Hamilton police officers." Maria Amaral, who owns the International Fish Market on James Street North near the scene, said she saw a man shouting and talking to himself while walking up and down the street. So did Greg Bessette, who said the man moved from the sidewalk out into the street. That's where the man was when police arrived to apprehend him, he said. "No one was bugging him," Bessette said. "He was just up and down the street yelling different stuff." The officers attempted to Tase the man, Bessette said, but it "didn't seem to be very effective."

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...ured-1.5852075

  2. #2
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    I looked at statistics from LAPD, Topeka, and my own department when I ran my former agency's less-lethal program several years ago. As I recall Tasers were running 50-60% effective in street usage across all three organizations. This is not to say that Tasers are junk or that they should never be deployed against someone with an edged weapon, but you have to expect failure in real world conditions.

    I'll keep a good thought for our Hamilton colleagues.

  3. #3
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Tasers are not for deadly force situations unless backed up by deadly force options. It can have a role in a designated contact team where one officer is tasked with less lethal and another is tasked with lethal. It is not the answer in an ongoing assault with a deadly weapon.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

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    Member feudist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Tasers are not for deadly force situations unless backed up by deadly force options. It can have a role in a designated contact team where one officer is tasked with less lethal and another is tasked with lethal. It is not the answer in an ongoing assault with a deadly weapon.
    This.

    And it works best as an ambush weapon. Achieving total body lockup is very range sensitive. Out of that envelope and it's just pain compliance.

  5. #5
    That stinks. I fear that we are going to be seeing more if this as official deescalation policies are expanded or even as CYA deescalation policies are practiced by officers fearing the second guess network about to crawl up their rectums.

    Tasers may be decent tools, but I’d be hesitant to deploy stuff with a high failure rate (40% from above post).

    Wonder how fast the whole taser good tune would change if PSD and political ranks could only carry them??

  6. #6
    Member feudist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAZ View Post
    That stinks. I fear that we are going to be seeing more if this as official deescalation policies are expanded or even as CYA deescalation policies are practiced by officers fearing the second guess network about to crawl up their rectums.

    Tasers may be decent tools, but I’d be hesitant to deploy stuff with a high failure rate (40% from above post).

    Wonder how fast the whole taser good tune would change if PSD and political ranks could only carry them??
    ROTFLOL

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd View Post
    I looked at statistics from LAPD, Topeka, and my own department when I ran my former agency's less-lethal program several years ago. As I recall Tasers were running 50-60% effective in street usage across all three organizations. This is not to say that Tasers are junk or that they should never be deployed against someone with an edged weapon, but you have to expect failure in real world conditions.

    I'll keep a good thought for our Hamilton colleagues.
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Tasers are not for deadly force situations unless backed up by deadly force options. It can have a role in a designated contact team where one officer is tasked with less lethal and another is tasked with lethal. It is not the answer in an ongoing assault with a deadly weapon.
    Quote Originally Posted by feudist View Post
    This.

    And it works best as an ambush weapon. Achieving total body lockup is very range sensitive. Out of that envelope and it's just pain compliance.
    In a nutshell, TASER training is designed to shield TASER from liability, not impart tactical skills. Far too many agencies treat the TASER Operators Course as the gold standard, and model their in-service/recertification training after it.

    I think Steve Ijames said it best when he said that LE has to have the courage to admit that some officers just aren't cerebral enough to effectively use TASERS.

    Any LL option should be used in a team context, whether it be empty hand, agents, baton, LL projectiles, or conducted energy weapons (if that's TASER's flavor of the month name for their devices).

    The problem is that, again, far too many, I think I could safely say most, police agencies don't conduct LL team training at the patrol level. How many supervisors actually enforce contact/cover rules by chewing ass or formally reprimanding officers who are lax in getting backup or don't work with backups effectively, much less take the time to drill LL team tactics?

    As far as TASER effectiveness, 50-60% sounds about right, a large part of the problem is once again training.

    Officers expect a TASER to work against Joe, who is wearing insulated bibbers, with an insulated hoodie underneath, or don't understand that nailing Cletus in the leg and lower back while Cletus is wearing baggie shorts/sweatpants may result in a clothing disconnect.

    They heard about clothing disconnects in lecture, maybe got to watch one IF they had anyone take live hits in their class, but often don't get a chance to drill them in class

    I watched a horrific use of force video several years ago where a backup officer removed the cartridge to drive stun a guy while several officers were piled on the subject. Of course this did nothing but make the subject go ape shit - which was interpreted as increased resistance. The TASing officer then reversed his grip on the taser and began tomahawk chopping the subject, apparently in the face judging from the postmortem photos. Pretty sure the guy would still be alive today if the officer had done a contact probe deployment and then went to a different quadrant to drive stun.

    Training, and basic craftiness is often lacking in these situations.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Tasers are not for deadly force situations unless backed up by deadly force options. It can have a role in a designated contact team where one officer is tasked with less lethal and another is tasked with lethal. It is not the answer in an ongoing assault with a deadly weapon.
    Locally referred to as a "Force Array". A supervisor, a lethal cover, a less lethal, and 1-2 hands on.

    pat

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