tpd223--I could live with that target, if the only hits that count are the ones on the circle in the face and the smallest circle on the chest.
tpd223--I could live with that target, if the only hits that count are the ones on the circle in the face and the smallest circle on the chest.
Unfortunately we have to score all hits in the milk bottle as hits per the state standard.Originally Posted by DocGKR
The best we could do as a department to tighten things up was use a 75% cut off for our officers as a fail instead of 70%. SWAT guys have to do 80%, FIs 90% score.
All the cool kids work at keeping 100% of their shots in the pie plate or head box. We have no head shots required on the course, but the 3-5-7 yard three shot drills seem to be begging for a 2 body/1 head response.
I do teach what I learned from the Tactical Anatomy course and emphasize high chest and T zone head shots as most effective. Our OISs indicate that this training works.
Last edited by Chuck Haggard; 06-09-2016 at 03:05 PM.
They gurgle for awhile, the machines keep them alive at the hospital if they get there fast enough, and they verrrry seldom leave under their own power. I cannot think of a single case I've worked where a bullet got inside the brain and did not cause the person to stop fighting. One of the more recent ones was a near contact shot with a 1911, sent a .45 through the back of the head and pushed head goo out the mouth. The guy folded up instantly. He "lived" for a few hours afterward. Even small calibers work. Maybe 2-3 year ago, a .25 just above and slightly behind the temple on a suspect who committed suicide after a shootout with the police resulted in him getting hit in the chest (non-life threatening injury, as it turned out) and he fell, gurgled, and lived for a few hours. He laid still for a little while but flopped around on the gurney after the medics picked him up, but it was very weak convulsions.
No kidding
Best quote I heard from a trauma doc on a guy shot through the temple with a .45 sideways. "Luckily", I guess he had a smaller brain and the round did not hit the actual brain and lodged behind his eye. He was a Crip Gang member and was upright and talking when I got to him, and was just rambling about retribution, would throw up and just keep yelling until the steam sort of let out and he collapsed. Per the trauma Doctor, "he may be able to go to the parties, but he will not get the jokes".I’d like to ask you a tangential question on CNS shots.
So, I recognize that the reasons to hit (on a frontal shot) the ocular-nasal cavities are multiple:
Generally underpowered pistol projectiles pass through less dense tissue and cavities to have minimum resistance in directly striking the brain.
Chances are minimized of the bullet being deflected off the curved surface of the skull or edges of the facial bones without getting inside and directly striking the brain.
Chances are maximized of the brainstem being struck directly by the pistol bullet since it is in line with the ocular-nasal cavities, and directly striking the brainstem is likely to lead to total and immediate cessation of dangerous behavior.
What about a shot that goes high, say the forehead area, and is no longer in line with the brainstem, but does not deflect and does in fact penetrate the skull and strike the brain directly?
What differences, if any, would you expect in behavioral response of the person shot there?
Or is the reason to aim for the ocular-nasal cavities solely related to minimizing chances of deflection off the curved skull and outer parts of the facial bones?
And please correct me if anything above is wrong; I know you will!
Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
"If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".
As far as targets, we adopted the National Target NDM-1 the second we saw the on Todd's site. We staple a bull repair center to them. This is what police agencies should be using for qualification. We are always trying to hold the black in the body and rectangle on the head as our standard.I’d like to ask you a tangential question on CNS shots.
So, I recognize that the reasons to hit (on a frontal shot) the ocular-nasal cavities are multiple:
Generally underpowered pistol projectiles pass through less dense tissue and cavities to have minimum resistance in directly striking the brain.
Chances are minimized of the bullet being deflected off the curved surface of the skull or edges of the facial bones without getting inside and directly striking the brain.
Chances are maximized of the brainstem being struck directly by the pistol bullet since it is in line with the ocular-nasal cavities, and directly striking the brainstem is likely to lead to total and immediate cessation of dangerous behavior.
What about a shot that goes high, say the forehead area, and is no longer in line with the brainstem, but does not deflect and does in fact penetrate the skull and strike the brain directly?
What differences, if any, would you expect in behavioral response of the person shot there?
Or is the reason to aim for the ocular-nasal cavities solely related to minimizing chances of deflection off the curved skull and outer parts of the facial bones?
And please correct me if anything above is wrong; I know you will!
We tell students to imagine a roll of duct tape wrapped around the head covering the eyes and ears as where to aim on a head, and the same thing above the nipple line and through the armpits on the body.
Last edited by Dagga Boy; 06-08-2016 at 02:04 PM.
Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard
"If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".
Over the last couple of years I have been using the FBI Q target with both a 4 inch circle in the head and a B-8 printed in the high chest in conjunction with the IALEFI Advanced Training target which is basically the same as the FBI version printed on Manny's picture. Only full value is given to hits in the black 6 inch chest circle and 4 inch head circle. 80% value is given for hits outside the black and within the scoring rings and at this time 60% value for hits in the remaining areas of the bottle. I start the training year and new shooters using the FBI version and move on to the IALEFI version for the remaining 2 thirds of the training year. Now that I have our personnel thinking successfully about making the tighter hits next training season the lesser value hits will count for only 40% value rather than 60%. I could make the change today and all our folks would still pass but need to get the course approved by the the NRA LE division. It took me awhile to get everyone on board since for almost 20 years we used the state standard of 80% hits to the Q as passing.
Fortunately as a private company we don't have to adhere to the state LEO standards as long as our course of fire was approved by the the NRA.
Last edited by rsa-otc; 06-08-2016 at 02:33 PM.
Scott
Only Hits Count - The Faster the Hit the more it Counts!!!!!!; DELIVER THE SHOT!
Stephen Hillier - "An amateur practices until he can do it right, a professional practices until he can't do it wrong."
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That's clearly a "no shoot" target. She's Mexican carrying a Glock, appendix carry, with the post-Serpa draw technique - she'll remove herself from the gene pool soon...
PS - really, "small chest box?" I nearly shot coffee out of my nose...
Sounds pretty much like what someone else told me too...
I bet a kitten can run faster than Domos...
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Very interesting target nyeti.
I understand that the 3x5 is a convenient eyebox due to the availability of index cards and post-it notes. In practice, for square front-facing shots, does the entire 3x5 tend to effect incapacitation, or does effectiveness severely drop off after you're outside of something like a IPSC/USPSA "credit card" upper A zone? The scoring reference being any grease ring touching the line means it's in.
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