Sub second concealed Israeli Draws

[JCN]

@JCN, you're the FNG. If you're going to come on strong with your first few posts, you know you're going to get some pushback, right? @JAD made a good point. Your gun wasn't unloaded when you muzzled your femoral. Unloaded = empty chamber, no source of ammunition. You had a full magazine, and you were in the process of racking it. There are a lot of defensive handgun SMEs here, and I'm guessing none of them would advocate malfunction clearance that includes sweeping yourself.

and... @JAD, he's brand new to P-F. Maybe cut him some slack? He seems like he could be a good fit here--although I'm not convinced this is a good start.
EDIT: just read your post. Slack cut.

I like you!

Duly noted regarding calling something unloaded versus unchambered.

I’m actually a safety nut, which is why I carry with a manual safety AIWB.

Philosophically, I don’t see the difference in actual safety between doing what I did racking on leg and drawing AIWB no safety. You are pointing a gun at yourself... when you reasonably do not think the gun will go off because of trigger finger discipline.

If I had my finger in the trigger guard when it was touching my leg, it’d be just as cringy as when a person draws AIWB with their finger on the trigger.

For example when I did the Fawbush three shots on target from concealment in under a second, I was concerned enough at that speed that I wore body armor on my leg, foot and groin, lol. Even though I never had a simulated ND in dry fire.

[Clusterfrack]

Draws and holstering from AIWB do not require sweeping the body. Have a look at this post and the thread it came from:

...You may have seen this already, but I want to post it again since it might be relevant to a discussion of concerns about drawing a striker gun from AIWB. I made this video during another discussion here on PF about the safety of drawing from AIWB and other holster positions while doing some things that are often seen in range training. This video only shows how this works for me, but I suspect plenty of other people are going to see a similar level of self-muzzling from these different holsters and positions. Look closely at where the SIRT's laser is during these draws. AIWB gave me the least self-muzzling (none.) OWB strong side only had a little of it, but it was there some of the time. Strong side IWB had a lot of full-leg-thickness self-muzzling. I think these dynamics can be strongly affected by different people drawing from different holsters carried in different positions while making different movements. For me personally, the answer my experiment provided to the question of 'which holster position is safest for me?' was powerfully in opposition to the common concerns about the safety of AIWB carry.

I like you!

Duly noted regarding calling something unloaded versus unchambered.

I’m actually a safety nut, which is why I carry with a manual safety AIWB.

Philosophically, I don’t see the difference in actual safety between doing what I did racking on leg and drawing AIWB no safety. You are pointing a gun at yourself... when you reasonably do not think the gun will go off because of trigger finger discipline.

If I had my finger in the trigger guard when it was touching my leg, it’d be just as cringy as when a person draws AIWB with their finger on the trigger.

For example when I did the Fawbush three shots on target from concealment in under a second, I was concerned enough at that speed that I wore body armor on my leg, foot and groin, lol. Even though I never had a simulated ND in dry fire.

[Mercworx]

While "Israeli" normally generates an eye roll from me it's worth pointing out that:

The chamber empty / horse stance thing was chosen as an SOP for large numbers of minimally trained people armed with a random mix of handguns and the need to carry handguns.

The "pros" in Israel know it's sub optimal and currently carry with a round chambered and use a variation of the modern isosceles.

Obviously you could do this much faster than 5 seconds. This being PF, I'll be disappointed if someone doesn't post a real attempt at Israeli draw on the clock.

Interesting, having served in the IDF myself I wondered where the "empty chamber" practice originated. Makes some sense in that context.

With my limited knowledge I struggle to see any benfit to the method of carry today.

Very impressive video nonetheless.

[JCN]

Draws and holstering from AIWB do not require sweeping the body. Have a look at this post and the thread it came from:

I totally agree with you.
But there are situations where muzzling yourself drawing from AIWB is unavoidable (sitting in a car).

And other times where it is a distant afterthought due to the imperative at hand (blocking with the free hand, stepping back).

I am NOT recommending to rack on the leg as a routine thing. It’s dangerous.

But if you had to do it, it is in the same ballpark of risk as a Glock AIWB while moving or sitting, IMO.

[scw2]

Philosophically, I don’t see the difference in actual safety between doing what I did racking on leg and drawing AIWB no safety. You are pointing a gun at yourself... when you reasonably do not think the gun will go off because of trigger finger discipline.

I think the way Spencer Keepers teaches the draw is to rotate out the end of the gun so once the gun clears the holster the muzzle should immediately start moving forwards and away from your body.. I didn't re-watch your normal AIWB draws, but that's probably the way it's moving given the speed of your draw. I believe odds of muzzling yourself AIWB are highest when reholstering, and normally I think standing in a way to push your hips forwards and doing the reverse of your draw where you leverage the muzzle end away from your body can help mitigate risks of AIWB.

In any case, pretty interesting video since previous ones I've seen have all been really slow and yours looked as fast as other carry methods.

But there are situations where muzzling yourself drawing from AIWB is unavoidable (sitting in a car).

I played around with this a bit and I think if you leverage your hips up by driving your feet into the car floor/side and your back into the seat, you can kinda help mitigate how much you muzzle yourself. Obviously that doesn't work if you're sitting in a regular chair, but the same technique of rotating the gun forward immediately after clearing the holster can help. Definitely feels sketchier than normal draws though.

And other times where it is a distant afterthought due to the imperative at hand (blocking with the free hand, stepping back).

Not sure if you've seen some southnarc videos floating around but there should be some examples of him demonstrating various offhand positions while keeping the shooting hand into a thumb pectoral index to mitigate risk of flagging yourself.

[JCS]

I’m new here, but every forum has their share of bitter cynical haters.

Lighten up, Francis. It was just for fun.

Here are some triple nickels from concealment with my carry gun (loaded chamber) to get the fun taste out of your FUDD.



But if AIWB is too scary because a loaded gun is pointed at your junk, then here’s an OWB draw at 50 feet -0 x3.



I like challenging myself, but I try and do it safely.

Welcome to the forum. That’s some really good shooting. I think you’ll like it here. There are some really high level competitive and le/mil guys and gals as well regular civilians with high levels of skill and knowledge. It’s not like other gun forums and it’s why it’s pretty much the only one I visit.

[JCN]

I think the way Spencer Keepers teaches the draw is to rotate out the end of the gun so once the gun clears the holster the muzzle should immediately start moving forwards and away from your body.. I didn't re-watch your normal AIWB draws, but that's probably the way it's moving given the speed of your draw. I believe odds of muzzling yourself AIWB are highest when reholstering, and normally I think standing in a way to push your hips forwards and doing the reverse of your draw where you leverage the muzzle end away from your body can help mitigate risks of AIWB.

In any case, pretty interesting video since previous ones I've seen have all been really slow and yours looked as fast as other carry methods.




I played around with this a bit and I think if you leverage your hips up by driving your feet into the car floor/side and your back into the seat, you can kinda help mitigate how much you muzzle yourself. Obviously that doesn't work if you're sitting in a regular chair, but the same technique of rotating the gun forward immediately after clearing the holster can help. Definitely feels sketchier than normal draws though.




Not sure if you've seen some southnarc videos floating around but there should be some examples of him demonstrating various offhand positions while keeping the shooting hand into a thumb pectoral index to mitigate risk of flagging yourself.

Good discussion! Thanks! That’s kind of what I hope to contribute.

I do rotate out on the draw and DEFINITELY on the reholster, I do drills with non-safety guns fairly often.

Same thing with carrying or practicing with a manual safety gun, but I’m a little less extreme about it.

When sitting or moving, I just meant the initial flagging of your moving leg when drawing (as opposed to when you’re doing other things).

In some situations, clearing the holster quickly is more important than whether the muzzle flags your leg when your finger is nowhere near the trigger.



If I’m at dinner at Luby’s and an active shooter comes in, I am not going to concern myself that I muzzle my groin as I draw under the table. I can’t imagine any pistol trainer would tell you to compromise the objective at hand to not muzzle yourself. I’d imagine they’d just stress that you need meticulous trigger finger discipline.



That’s a sub second concealed AIWB draw to an 8” plate at 10 yards under a second with a manual safety equipped G33 (357 Sig).

But that’s why my preference is manual safety AIWB, but I wouldn’t call someone who didn’t have a manual safety, “stupid.” They’d just need an even higher level of trigger discipline.

[JohnO]

I see something like this -> (Thread: Sub second concealed Israeli Draws). I usually know what I am going to find.

Some form of parlor trick, someone with really good reflexes and fast reaction time, demonstration of marginal accuracy and/or performance results based upon ideal square range zero threat conditions.

I wasn't wrong in my supposition. So therefore, WHY? What's the point?

[JCN]

I see something like this -> (Thread: Sub second concealed Israeli Draws). I usually know what I am going to find.

Some form of parlor trick, someone with really good reflexes and fast reaction time, demonstration of marginal accuracy and/or performance results based upon ideal square range zero threat conditions.

I wasn't wrong in my supposition. So therefore, WHY? What's the point?

I wanted to see if I could do it. Being a regular Joe.
But, answer me this: have you seen it done before? If I could have found it online or any discussion of it, I wouldn’t have bothered.

I just hadn’t come across any video of it and wanted to see if it was possible?

Can you please share a thread or video that’s out there? Not being snarky, I honestly couldn’t find one.

[ASH556]

This was a video I made for fun.

I carry loaded chamber.

I hadn’t seen any sub second concealed Israeli draws so I wanted to see what I could do.

Be kind, gents!

I’m moving over from Glock Talk because I like shooting and seems that forum is all politics and COVID these days.

I'm quoting this OP because I do think it bears repeating. Dude isn't advocating un-chambered start. Just showing that it can be done quickly. Some things have more value than others. I think the value of this is certainly questionable if someone was advocating it as a training technique, but "just to see if I could" is about as valid as anything.

Anyway, JCN, welcome aboard.