"Paper? Whats paper? I don't see that app."Originally Posted by littlejerry
-Random Zillennial.
"Paper? Whats paper? I don't see that app."
-Random Zillennial.
Yes, but in her case just a tiny percentage of her shooting/training/practice has been done officially on LAPD ranges. I admit that much of the blazing fast stuff that is done by the cuties on the TTI videos is more about their hooters than their hits (after watching the videos multiple times I have eventually looked at some of the targets. Some...) but she in particular can shoot plenty fast. Some of the actresses can also shoot plenty fast, but most of those targets are pretty big and many of the hits are pretty sketchy, obviously they are being slaves to the timer. OTOH watching Robert Vogel run the same course on freshly painted plates shows him center punching them all while just absolutely flying. In the McBride shooting I am sure if her opponent had been shooting at her as fast as they could at that close range where untrained people can easily shoot you she woulda been blazing back.
I admit that when I started a shift to 9mm part of me was wondering about how I would compare on some of the drills that are posted on the www, by shooters that are always doing so with 9mm. But now that I have shifted I really do not think about that so much, but I really like having one big box of pew that can run my striker guns, or my 1911, or an AR.
But sometimes I do think the enthusiast community has thrown .40 under the bus a bit. There are things to not like about it, but split times are probably only "longer" in the context of shooting competitively, pretty sure shooting at an assessment speed can be done with a .40. And many people carry the .40 in the woods when they are potentially going to encounter a 170 pound mountain lion, but carry a 9mm when they are potentially going to encounter a 270 pound dirtbag. And I sure enjoy less recoil more than I used to, and I think 9mm is best for my volume and plan to stick with it. But somebody that goes to an indoor range every few months is not going to develop the skill to shoot faster than they can with a .40, but those people would most benefit from shooting 9mm, but they are not doing the volume that will beat up their body and equipment. Now I think I am just rambling...
I 100% completely disagree. FoF is 100% skill building. I have a marital arts background, ended up earning a couple different colors of belts Andy our don’t build actual fighting skills doing katas, practicing blocks. That’s your base fundamentals and then you learn how to apply them, improve them, be more efficient, more effective when you spar, which is controlled fighting, which is the same principle as FoF training. I can teach someone how to do a traffic stop, tell them how to approach a vehicle etc., but until they start actually doing it, they aren’t building on those base skills. FoF is building on base skills. In everything we do we should be skill building. From working the road, to working an invest, to rolling with a dirtbag, to shooting, FoF we should be evaluating a building our skills.
Because any analysis of terminal ballistics is pure confirmation bias bullshit. Statistics can be manipulated to prove whatever you want to prove. “The .45 bullet expanded to .80 and penetrated 14 inches.” “Yea, but the 9mm expanded to .60 and penetrated 17 inches. That 9mm is better.” Or “The .45 expanded to .80 and penetrated to 14 inches. The 9mm only expanded to .60 and penetrated to 17 inches. That 9mm penetration is a bit deep, might over-penetrate. The 45 is better.” See how I spun the exact same data in two completely different ways? The huge wave of transition to 9mm away from 40 and 45 is due to money and nothing else. The ammunition costs less, training non-gun people to shoot it is easier, which means less range time required to pass the magical qualification course, with less rounds expended. Very few places are looking at their budget and opining “hmm 1000 rounds of 45 was costing us $330 and 1000 rounds of 9mm is only $200. Man we can get about 1500 rounds of 9mm for the same price!” No, they’re looking at it and saying “we just saved $130 per case of ammo.” The “performance improvement” of 9mm was just the propaganda used to sell it. 9mm has been doing just fine for years. 124gr Gold Dot has been around a long time. Golden Sabers have been around a long time. Firearms training was lacking and marksmanship skills were poor.
NYPD study on OIS encounters. With revolvers I think the rounds per hit was 2.8 rounds fired for every one hit and 5.something rounds fired per incident. In the 90s that statistic went to 12.something rounds fired per hit and a large increase in rounds fired per incident. Clint Smith has a rant video about it. YouTube it, you’ll get the details.
I found this video on YouTube that illustrates what I’m saying about the timer vs more realistic training.
It all depends on how you train. In my experience with martial arts, katas and styles that emphasize them aren’t very effective. But a single day or weekend of FoF isn’t going to be that effective either, other than as a test of skills already built.
Similarly, I disagree with Pincus, and this wouldn’t be the first time. I’ve trained with him, and his approach is not one that works for me.
Build skills, including speed in the best ways possible, using the best tools. That includes a timer.
Tactics need to be trained as well, and that requires different tools.
Test application of skills.
Repeat.
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
Personally, purchasing a shot timer has also made me more aware of misses and how to avoid missing at speed. Or in other words, it forced me to slow down to get hits at distance and be more accountable for rounds sent.
I will agree that the majority of my agency wouldn't benefit from a shot timer because, as a collective, there is not a firm grasp of marksmanship fundamentals nor is there an emphasis on training that. Not too long ago there was a shooting class one could sign up for and it was only held a couple of times. Drills were very Pat Mac-ish and required movement, support hand shooting, speed, etc.
I'm not ashamed to admit that I was sore for three days afterwards due to the running involved (performed to get the pulse up) and even though I was 50 at the time, I showed off and shot well. Couldn't move later that night, but I was too stubborn to let the younger kids best my times.
At the start, the instructor introduced the shot timer to the students and asked me if I had one that they could borrow as they only had one and wanted to run drills at the same time. I fished mine out and handed it to the other instructor. I would estimate that I was the only student that trained with a timer as the others had this "oh crap" look at the thought of being measured against one another. It caused a lot of stress to the shooters...and since we were using steel....misses caused even more stress as the rest watching knew whether or not you got your hit.
The drills were very accuracy focused. Your time really didn't matter unless you got 100 percent hits. There were no excuses......support hand only? You better get your hit. Movement involved? Better get your hit. Low times were only compared if you got all hits. Hits mattered more.
I think that is the way to go and in personal training I try to find my fastest speeds with "all blacks" on B8s. I get sad with fast times and one miss in the 8 ring. So I slow down a tenth and get the hits.
My job requires that.
Regards.
Here is a training group that uses shot timers, as well as randomly placed and hidden targets.
https://www.xrayalpha.com
I would very much like to train with them.
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
An example of metronome training - a different take on a "timer"
The best example of that, as you're aware, is when a traditional martial artist tries BJJ.
I've lost count of how many people, adults and kids, that came to the gym myself and my kids go to with black belts in one style of martial arts or another only to never show up again after realizing none of what they've been taught is useful once things go to the ground and a 107lb teenage girl ties them up like a pretzel.
As demonstrated here (starting at about 3:30):
Using one in practice also helped me develop a condition of knowing how slow you need to go at a given range to hit a given target. I know I can shoot faster if I am hitting a 10" plate instead of a 8" plate, and I damn well better be, it is almost 60% larger. In practice I can miss, so I can keep going faster until my hit probability suffers and back the truck up from there. But I only know this from doing it, over and over and over, with a timer.
I am not LE, but shoot with enough people that are and have had an opportunity to run the basic course that is the minimal (emphasis on minimal...) requirement in my state. I would speculate your Oh Crap folks were used to meeting a pass/fail requirement rather than competing, good on them for signing up for something a bit more strenuous!
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