Value of timers debate (sidebar conversations moved to new thread)

[Hot Cereal]

You're asking why a fundamentals drill doesn't teach FoF components. Well, because it's not supposed to. Complaining timed drills don't replicate FoF lessons is like complaining FoF makes it tough to evaluate and adjust the shooter's grip. Do you worry that FoF isn't teaching reading pre-assault indicators because the role players aren't really behaving naturally? Or that it creates an artificial level of situational awareness because the student knows the odds of "something happening" are damn near 100%? Do you distract your student for 30 minutes of eating lunch and bullshitting until he starts to forget he's in a scenario and then start it? Do you use professional actors who are trained to display realistic pre-attack indicators? Of course not, the reality and constraints of training make that nonsensical. You teach body language reading, situational awareness, etc. as a separate component. That's why *every* type of training, practice, or gaming results in some sort of so-called "training scar". It's not real. None of it completely encompasses a real shooting. But each is a piece to the total puzzle of a well rounded fighter.

My previous agency actually paid for hired actors, special effects and make up people, and used actual buildings in our jurisdiction to conduct mandatory active shooter training every year. It was about as real as could be. We ran through at least three scenarios and not all of them were scenarios that involved shooting. It was excellent training. We did it full kit, alarms going off, comms down, you name it. Excellent training that no doubt cost a metric fuckton. But, it was a large county agency with a large county budget. Another FoF training I was fortunate enough to participate in was absolutely excellent. It was routine calls for service. Over half of them there was no use of force. Just critique on the small things. Excellent training that took away the anticipation that you’re talking about and that is very real.

Yes, I would like to put people through training that consisted of bullshitting and then a scenario. That’s realistic. You can go from bullshitting over a cup of coffee to rolling with a tweaked in 3 mins. Been there, done that.

Most times shooting drills are pretty irrelevant to an operational LE or civilian environment. If we’re doing live fire the ICTS that the Instructor Zero guy uses is pretty intriguing. I had the opportunity to train that and it’s night and day between static targets.

The majority of OIS incidents are shootings, not fights. A lot of persons armed with impact weapons that start at a stand off distance and then evolve into a shooting. Blazing fast draw to shot times aren’t relevant in those scenarios. I’d rather have a person with a decent draw to accurate shot speed that had the tactics training to help put them in the best position to make it out with no extra holes. We need relevant training. Cops are getting in bad situations because most of our training isn’t relevant.

Now, something I WOULD like to use a timer for is something like this: walk this line forward, when a threat appears move to this area behind cover while engage the threat. That’s a pretty rough scenario but I think you get the gist.

I don't know shit about lacrosse, so I can't make an analogy there but I assume everyone's familiar enough with basketball to get this one. What does dribbling the ball around an empty court by yourself have to do with dribbling the ball when someone's trying to steal it from you? What does shooting a 3 point shot with all the time in the world and nobody trying to block you have to do with shooting one in a game? Obviously it's just one component of being a successful basketball player and having a strong 3-pointer. Yet Larry Bird did those exact things a metric shit ton and did pretty well for himself.

Nobody is saying do timed drills to the exclusion of FoF. False dichotomy.

If you can’t dribble with no pressure then you sure as hell can’t dribble under pressure Your example is exactly what I’m talking about. Build those fundamentals without any additional pressure before you introduce the pressure.

I’m not implying timed drills to the exclusion of FoF and I’m not suggesting that anyone is saying that. If that’s how it came across that’s not what I meant at all. I think even our shooting drills should be rooted in some reality.

This all being said, I am a constant student with an open mind, what’s a good timer to pick up for decent cash? I’m open to trying things out. I’m open to new perspectives and I really think this discussion has provided at lot of food for thought.

[BehindBlueI's]

My previous agency actually paid for hired actors, special effects and make up people, and used actual buildings in our jurisdiction to conduct mandatory active shooter training every year. It was about as real as could be. We ran through at least three scenarios and not all of them were scenarios that involved shooting. It was excellent training. We did it full kit, alarms going off, comms down, you name it. Excellent training that no doubt cost a metric fuckton. But, it was a large county agency with a large county budget. Another FoF training I was fortunate enough to participate in was absolutely excellent. It was routine calls for service. Over half of them there was no use of force. Just critique on the small things. Excellent training that took away the anticipation that you’re talking about and that is very real.

We've done the same, except I don't think they were actors. Just regular people who volunteered. I've done it *maybe* once every 5 years, and only one had more then a hundred roleplayers. Definitely not enough to maintain the level of proficiency we'd like and, face it, very few people have access to that sort of thing ever. So it's really a different discussion.

As far as what timer, I like the shotmaxx. I'm kicking around ordering a Gen 2. It's a wristwatch style timer that uses both an audio sensor and/or an accelerometer. The accelerometer is awesome because I can shoot right next to someone firing a rifle and it won't pick up any of their shots. My department range is outside but with walls and baffles and it's loud and echo-y. You don't have to worry about echoes or other shooters in accelerometer mode. The downsides are it doesn't store a lot of data (although I think the new one does plus you can hook it to an app to store more data), the face scratches fairly easily on the first gen, and if you do one handed drills it has to be on the wrist of the hand you're using (when using the accelerometer only, obviously). The audio mode will go sensitive enough to catch the hammer fall of a TDA Sig, but I pretty much just use par times for dry fire.

[mmc45414]

IMO one value of the timer is to create even a slight sense of pressure to execute and improve. Fast "enough" is going to be a big variable, knowing how fast you "can" shoot might establish a higher confidence level to do what needs to be done. A recent example might be the OIS involving Toni McBride, where body camera video shows her shooting vastly slower than she has frequently demonstrated and documented publicly. She shot fast enough to stop the charging knife guy, but if the dude was shooting at her I am sure her splits woulda been a lot less.

But the timer is just a measuring device that picks a winner in competition or measures individual progress. Blaming the timer for things people do with timers is just like my MIL blaming her TV for some of the shit that is on TV. 1/100 of a second only matters if you get first pick at the prize table.

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[NoTacTravis]

Objective measurements and practice performing under pressure? Bah! Who wants that when you have the option to self evaluate and be the biggest fish your little mud puddle has ever seen?

Reminds me of uber-deadly martial arts masters who would never compete.

I'm so worried about training scars that I don't train. That way when things are for realsies NOTHING will stand in the way of the performance I've been imagining I will be capable of.

Clearly no one can argue against the supreme logic I've laid out above. I mean I don't have a timer but I'm pretty sure I shot El Presidente in some kind of local record last time I shot it. I mean it felt REALLY fast so a logical guess is a second or so faster than Sevigny ammiright?

[Clusterfrack]

@Hot Cereal, the AMG Lab Commander is the best timer, but is backordered. Here’s a good basic timer:

https://benstoegerproshop.com/compet...-2-shot-timer/

[MickAK]

I don't agree with @Hot Cereal that one needs a high level of proficiency before a timer is helpful, but it's an interesting proposition. When in the course of training do we introduce a timer, and why?

I think you can introduce a timer at any point after safe handling is ingrained. Figuring out when and if to pull a timer is more difficult. At that point you're off in the land of 'feelings'.

It's easy to say 'don't be a slave to the timer' but harder to implement. I don't respect and try to emulate the shooters that I do because of their times. I do so because their motions are natural, like breathing, not a performance to a timer. I think some people can get there while running a timer the entire time, and some people need to put the timer away and just flow. Once you go away from measurable metrics and start using words like 'just like breathing' and 'flow' you more or less lose the ability to discuss it with people on the internet, because there isn't any way to prove you're not just spouting bullshit that sounds good. They can still be important though.

[HCM]

I want to go train with Pat Mac. I like his philosphies.



You come across to me as that guy who makes everything a lot more complicated than it really is. Train for accuracy: Put all your shots inside this circle. Good. Now, do it again. Ok, good. Now, do it a little faster. If I can't get someone to hit the target making them faster won't do me a bit of good. If I can get that person to hit the target I can make them faster. I don't need a timer to take one mediocre to novice shooter and compare them to another mediocre to novice shooter to determine they need to be faster. Frankly, what tells me how they're doing is putting them into an unknown FoF scenario.

Sure, a timer provides some quantifiable data, but what is your end goal? Constantly get faster? Where are you drawing the line? What kinds of expectations are you setting up? Does everyone have to be under X time? What if they aren't? Are you going to put them on the desk? Is your qual timed? How do you time all those people shooting at the same time? Oh, turning targets? An old fashioned stop watch? You're acquiring data points from a known course of fire, and at the very least using targets that are either static or don't move much. Real life isn't like that. You should know that, you probably do.

What about all the other aspects this martial art that are FAR more important? Like I said previously, I am not 100% anti-timer. I think they end up taking over the goal of training because they typically end up not being used improperly. For all this love affair with timers I don't think anyone has commented on my opinion of FoF training. The timer is useless if your tactics suck. Focus on the right things.

Sure, humans are terrible at estimating time. Eye witnesses typically get the details wrong. Feeling doesn't always equal reality. But, being able to tell when someone isn't hacking it doesn't take a timer. Once we're getting timers involved we should be at a rather high level of proficiency. How do you deal with the cop who goes on line, struggles to shoot a 2.5 second draw to shot time, now they know they are slow, now they have confidence issues, oops we ran out of time for today and now they have to go back on the road with a lack of confidence? To me, until someone is at a moderate to high level of proficiency, you're wasting your time with a timer. I would rather have confident cops than data points.

I'm sure that you and others will have X and Y data points to tell me I'm wrong, but really this is a lot of opinion and a lot of this is subjective. I am not saying we should be OK with mediocre speed, allow people to go too slow, or totally throw away the timer from tactical training, however, I am of the opinion that it's uses are not as vast and broad as this forum would have people believe.
Wrong, I just used paper today. Plenty of folks train and survive without shot timers.

I said I don't remember the exact time, but we used a shot timer. I think it was a PACT.

You need to work both speed and accuracy. then bring them together in practical applications. Trying to work both at the same time is inefficient. Just shooting a lot and hoping you get better isn't a rational act.

You see a time solely as a "time hack" to eliminate people i.e. a form of time pressure. LE uses Time pressure in the form of turning targets and man on man competition all the time. The reason you see more turning targets than shot timers is it is simply the quickest and cheapest way to induce / enforce par times.

As myself and others have detailed, a timer is a tool to make people better, if you know what you are doing. The process is no more complicated that of coaching / training any other physical or athletic activity.

The crux of the argument is this: timers and targets don't lie. They produce objective data. There is nothing subjective about it.

We all like to stay in our comfort zone and work what we are good at but your comfort zone will kill you. Objective data will either motivate you to work on your weaknesses or deny the data.

Hint: I don't use timers because I am naturally fast...

[HCM]

While people latch onto better shooting performance with a 9mm, as a main justification over .40, I think the two largest benefits of 9mm are the caliber is easier than .40 on a shooter’s body and their guns. And the more shooting you do, the more pronounced those benefits are.

As well as ammo cost and capacity.

180 is an improvement over the 155 grain my agency issued for many years.

[HCM]

Originally Posted by Hot Cereal
When I watch videos of people shooting on a timer a lot of them set the timer, put it on their belt, assume some unnatural ready position, set their stance, and wait for the beep. What part of that is grounded in any form of reality? You KNOW the timer is going to beep at some point. You KNOW that you’re going to shoot. You KNOW where the target is or generally will be.

Random attacks to keep you sharp.. I've seen that training method before....

[BobM]

While people latch onto better shooting performance with a 9mm, as a main justification over .40, I think the two largest benefits of 9mm are the caliber is easier than .40 on a shooter’s body and their guns. And the more shooting you do, the more pronounced those benefits are.

Now in my mid 50s I can definitely tell the difference between taking a weekend class with my 9 as opposed to my 40s.