Value of timers debate (sidebar conversations moved to new thread)

[HCM]

***SIDE BAR CONVERSATIONS CULLED FROM EXISTING THREADS INTO THEIR OWN - MODERATOR***

Which is a shame. The .40 is a good cartridge. When I shoot full power duty loads in both calibers (124 HST vs 165 HST) I notice a difference, but not anything appreciable for me.

What does the timer say?

[Hot Cereal]

What does the timer say?

I don’t use timers. If I were to use a timer the difference would be negligible, in fact one of the fastest guns I can shoot is a Glock 23. I’m with Clint Smith on timers for training. Shoot good before you shoot fast. You’re going to shoot fast when there’s shit in your shorts.

[HCM]

I don’t use timers. If I were to use a timer the difference would be negligible, in fact one of the fastest guns I can shoot is a Glock 23. I’m with Clint Smith on timers for training. Shoot good before you shoot fast. You’re going to shoot fast when there’s shit in your shorts.

Timers, like targets, don't lie.

You either have quantifiable data, or you don't. As PF's late founder Toff G. said so well, feelings lie.

https://pistol-training.com/archives/5108

[Hot Cereal]

Timers, like targets, don't lie.

You either have quantifiable data, or you don't. As PF's late founder Toff G. said so well, feelings lie.

https://pistol-training.com/archives/5108

I’m not getting worked up over it. If I have to use a firearm in a social environment it won’t be on a known course of fire with static targets. Shoot good before anything else.

[DaBigBR]

I respect where Clint is coming from on timers, BUT...a timer can definitely give you information on performance improvement, particularly when you're working on component skills like draws, reloads, and transitions. Part of shooting "good" is shooting efficiently and it's hard to judge efficiency without measuring time.

[BehindBlueI's]

Stick with shooting for accuracy. All these kommandos that have Instagram or YouTube accounts with lots of followers, those guys are no doubt shooting with blazing speed and accuracy, but they’re doing it on a known course of fire with static targets that don’t move or shoot back.

I don't have instagram or youtube. I'm just a guy who's investigated a metric shot ton of these and been involved in a "non static shooting back target" shooting.

You definitely need a blend of speed and accuracy. Both have diminishing returns, and I don't care about a few tenths in splits but it's disingenuous to imply that speed doesn't matter at all. You aren't going to suddenly get better when the targets aren't static and are shooting back so it behooves you to be even better in those then you think you need to be.


I get you're anti-timer. That's fine. Without a timer you can't really evaluate different techniques. When you say things like "I shot this duty round and that duty round and didn't notice a difference" it's of little value since there's no data. Like taking Shrek's class and seeing what you're doing in real slow motion video vs what your brain thinks you're doing, objective feedback makes you better then going by feels will.

[lwt16]

After years of refusing to purchase a dedicated shot timer, I finally caved and bought one. I consider it one of the best purchases I ever made related to my training.

1. ammo by the case
2. B8 repair centers
3. Competition Electronics Pocket Pro original

To the OP......

I get that you can't do live draws at most ranges due to policies and liability. I will say that in my recent experience, dry draw practice as well as dry fire practice has paid HUGE dividends for me. My living room has been my main spot to train since ammo got so scarce. It didn't come overnight, but a dedicated training regimen has cut my times from the concealed draw as well as from the duty holster a bunch. I remain shocked at how effective focusing on efficiency is in relation to getting the gun into action. Even when I "blow" a draw, I'm still much much faster than I was a year ago.

I helped with a new shooter class the other day and performed a dry draw at speed utilizing a weighted blue gun. While not trying to impress anyone, even the other instructor was sort of shocked at how fast I can go now. At work, I've had to draw on suspects and the other cops were also remarking on how fast I was.

Split times, however, I would like to slow those down some and shoot at "assessment speed" as Daggaboy refers to it. I feel that is important at this stage of the game in LE. I find that to get the hits on drills....especially at 15 and 25 yards.....my splits aren't as fast as they used to be. A balance of speed and accuracy is what I seek.

Real gunfights happen real fast. As long as the accuracy is there, fast as possible is inherently a good thing in a real encounter.

Regards.

[Zincwarrior]

After years of refusing to purchase a dedicated shot timer, I finally caved and bought one. I consider it one of the best purchases I ever made related to my training.

1. ammo by the case
2. B8 repair centers
3. Competition Electronics Pocket Pro original

To the OP......

I get that you can't do live draws at most ranges due to policies and liability. I will say that in my recent experience, dry draw practice as well as dry fire practice has paid HUGE dividends for me. My living room has been my main spot to train since ammo got so scarce. It didn't come overnight, but a dedicated training regimen has cut my times from the concealed draw as well as from the duty holster a bunch. I remain shocked at how effective focusing on efficiency is in relation to getting the gun into action. Even when I "blow" a draw, I'm still much much faster than I was a year ago.

I helped with a new shooter class the other day and performed a dry draw at speed utilizing a weighted blue gun. While not trying to impress anyone, even the other instructor was sort of shocked at how fast I can go now. At work, I've had to draw on suspects and the other cops were also remarking on how fast I was.

Split times, however, I would like to slow those down some and shoot at "assessment speed" as Daggaboy refers to it. I feel that is important at this stage of the game in LE. I find that to get the hits on drills....especially at 15 and 25 yards.....my splits aren't as fast as they used to be. A balance of speed and accuracy is what I seek.

Real gunfights happen real fast. As long as the accuracy is there, fast as possible is inherently a good thing in a real encounter.

Regards.

What you can do is get the timing of your draw up to a ready position in dry fire. Then in box range fire do the splits and other timing tests from that ready position. Ad A + B and violin! a crude time.

[lwt16]

What you can do is get the timing of your draw up to a ready position in dry fire. Then in box range fire do the splits and other timing tests from that ready position. Ad A + B and violin! a crude time.

Sort of what I am doing to speed up reloads too.

[HCM]

Do Gen 1-4 .40 S&W Glocks fit into Gen 5 9mm holsters? I’ve got a lot of .40 to burn through and nothing to burn it up with anymore...figure I’ll buy a used Gen whatever Glock shoot up all the ammo and sell it. Also, one of the main benifits to shooting with a timer in a training situation is the random start function not necessarily the timing function.

Gen 1-4 Glocks fit in Gen 5 9mm holsters.

There are many benefits to a timer. Random start is one, using progressive par times to increase your speed is another.

And of course having real data to track progress (or lack there of).

Humans suck at measuring time in small increments and many times the fastest performance “feels” slow, while runs that “feel” fast often aren’t.