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Thread: Eight Can't Wait Comes to Milwaukee

  1. #11
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    1) No one was training & authorizing chokeholds, stranglehold. There were agencies that authorized the LVNR or the carotid control hold (take your pic on verbiage). Sadly, we lost an effective tool because of idiocracy and a widespread inability to understand the English language;

    2) Cops have been de-escalating forever. Alas, it is a two-way street in that the person(s) we are dealing with have to want to de-escalate as well. It's a goal, not a tactic;

    3) Meh. Read Garner, read Graham. You may well not have time to give warnings in a defense of self event. We're in the situation out here in the 9th, where they've expanded the "we'd like a warning" part of Garner to you must warn in any use of force encounter;

    4) Read Plakas v Drinski - it made sense then, it still makes sense. This is going to be a return to the bad days of having to hit every step on the force continuum stairwell;

    5) Intervention? Been around for a while, if you know it's unreasonable step in & stop it;

    6) Cuz vehicles have never, ever been used as an offensive here in the US or overseas. Use the standard in Quezada v Bernalillo County about officers not putting themselves in jeopardy;

    7) The original force continuum models were dumped because of the stairwell. Agencies addressed it in policy. If a diagram needs to come back to make it easier to understand how the suspect's behavior drives outcomes, then use the spinning circles model;

    8) Who doesn't mandate reporting for actually using force?

    8 reasons why this "idea" is pointless. It's a politically driven idea that lacks merit by any reasonable definition.

  2. #12
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paherne View Post
    Isn't this a political thread?
    Yes, it certainly is.

    Given that LE is part of the executive branch, there's going to be some overlap. Since this thread is narrowly and specifically related to a specific policy applied to law enforcement and the OP is seeking input from law enforcement I've allowed it to stay in the LE forum. Sort of like we're allowing 2nd amendment political discussion as long as it remains narrow in scope and specific to a certain law, court case, etc. It's tough to make a bright line rule, and like I said in the PF news thread announcing the change since this is new the rules may be in flux. I've considered making a "current events and politics of policing" sub-forum here for longer then I thought about a general politics thread, but was never quite convinced it was a good idea so I left it alone.

    Member feedback is certainly welcome as we feel our way through this fairly major change to the forum, but rather then derail this thread please use the news announcement thread in my signature.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  3. #13
    Member jd950's Avatar
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    If it makes the people of Milwaukee feel good to think this is a radically progressive policy, then that is fine with me, but policies similar to those, and even more restrictive, are in place here and other agencies I know of in Cali, Oregon and Washington state. I have no problem with the concept of using various verbal and non-lethal techniques where appropriate, and in fact I am a proponent and instructor of such techniques. But like any tool, they have a time and place and must be utilized correctly.

    Unfortunately, broad and vague policies coupled with inadequate training seems to be the norm, and those are a recipe for failure on multiple levels. There is clearly room for improvement in how we handle certain situations, especially emotionally disturbed and intoxicated persons, but we are rushing to come up with policies and laws that look good and sound good, at the expense of a more sophisticated approach.

    Some people think we should adopt the British unarmed policing model. I don't think American cops will go along and even in the UK, as assaults on officers increase pretty dramatically each year, so do the number of armed officers.

    Here is what some think policing should look like in the U.S.:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtFsyrNuI6I

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBVUBPrfQsQ (Good thing the Taser worked)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUQ519EIWWw

    Rarely do simple solutions fix complicated problems in policing.

  4. #14
    Time, options and resources huh? Now I know where my dept got their language from on our revised policies and it's already backfiring on us and at least one officer is already dead, likely due to it.

    It means that officers are starting to tuck tail and run when they should be fighting for themselves and their partners.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

  5. #15
    Member Zincwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyotesfan97 View Post
    BBI I chuckled at the dog bite requirement. I can’t imagine my dog biting someone and not writing a report.

  6. #16
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zincwarrior View Post
    I love that! The best part is it’s true.
    Just a dog chauffeur that used to hold the dumb end of the leash.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guerrero View Post
    Would like to get the P-F LEO's reaction to this:

    https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/...it/3894099001/
    This is the good idea fairy requiring mechanical application of use of force rather than objective application.

    This was specifically addressed in the Graham decision:

    “…the test of reasonableness under the Fourth Amendment is not capable of precise definition or mechanical application.”
    The Myth of Mechanical Application When Dealing with the Irrational
    By Jim Glennon | Dec 16, 2020



    https://www.calibrepress.com/2020/12...r8Ng58VsFW6L8w

    “…the test of reasonableness under the Fourth Amendment is not capable of precise definition or mechanical application.”

    100% of the people who give their opinions about an officer’s decision-making process and subsequent conduct during an interaction with a citizen captured on video, are giving those opinions in the aftermath. While viewing said video they are experiencing zero stress. As they sit sipping their extra-large Cinnamon Roll Frappuccino staring at their computer screens they are, while forming those opinions, at no risk of being injured nor will they suffer any negative consequences, no matter their final conclusionary judgement.

    So, why the partial quote from the Graham vs. Connor decision authored by Chief Justice Rehnquist and a paragraph on the Monday-morning quarterbacking of decisions made by police officers?
    Click on the link to see the video the rest of the article references.

    Rehnquist’s Opinion and the Irrationality of People

    The Graham Standard concerning an officer’s use of force was born from the Graham vs. Connor case back in the 1980s.

    The Supreme Court decided that judging an officer’s behavior during a force event would forever more be considered through the lens of the Fourth Amendment and the Objective Reasonableness standard.

    Generally, whenever an officer uses force, whatever action the officer took in the moment, the question would be: “Were those actions ‘objectively reasonable’ based on the facts and circumstances in that moment?” The “reasonableness” would be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, rather than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight.

    The argument that Graham needs to be overturned or another standard set in its place that is being made by many today, centers around the inability to precisely define “objective reasonableness” and the belief that an officer’s response to a threat should be a singular mechanical application.

    Let me explain.

    Those arguing for Graham’s demise, contend that since objective reasonableness isn’t definable, it is too lenient and advantageous for the police. Many want it replaced with a different term— “minimal use of force”—which is interesting because that term, those four words, is completely impossible to define.

    In addition, what those who offer opinions and second guess police officers want, apparently, is a one-size-fits-all approach to dealing with uncooperative, combative and violent subjects. In other words, if a person does ‘A’, then the officer response needs to be a clearly established, well defined, accepted and disciplined, mechanical application, ‘B’.

    Which, of course, is ridiculous. It dismisses the complexity of human behavior and the multiple ever-changing variables that present themselves when police officers are dealing with irrational people.

    The Myth of Mechanical Application

    The primary problem with the one-size-fits-all mechanical application theory is that ‘A’ alone never happens. Never. Especially when someone is unreasonable, illogical and violent. While an officer may be dealing with someone’s ‘A’ behavior, their ‘D’, ‘F’, ‘Q’, ‘Z’, ‘X’, ‘P’ and ‘M’ behavior is in full swing…and at the same time.

    The actions of people void of reason are never linear, organized or foretelling. They are a mess. Their behavior is unpredictable, complex and nonsensical. Impossible to cogently track.

    Such instability makes them dangerous, especially when they have a weapon, a gun. Like in the attached video.

    In this case the officers see a gun in the vehicle within reach of the driver. They ask him to put his hands on the steering wheel, which seems like a reasonable request to most reasonable people. But the man responds to the officers by saying, “No!”

    Who does that? Someone unreasonable and irrational.

    A respectful gun owner and believer of the second amendment is also respectful of the law and obliging to reasonable requests by law enforcement. This man, from the get-go, was purposely antagonistic, which also made him imminently dangerous.

    The officers then gave the driver the lawful order to exit the vehicle. He refused. The officers pointed their guns at him and told him if he refused to comply, they would release the K-9.

    His response? “I will shoot you if you do.”

    Again, what type of person says that with two guns pointed at him? He shows virtually no fear while astonishingly arguing about his constitutional rights.

    The man is illogical to the extreme.

    You watched the rest of the video. His irrationality continues.

    There is never any singular ‘A’ behavior from the man. He has no linear thought process. His actions are unstable, and he could grab his gun and shoot one or both officers easily in less than a second.

    This crazed individual is a perfect example of what type of irrational behavior officers deal with daily; people who go beyond the simple actions of ‘A’ that their critics mistakenly believe is the norm. This man is exhibiting ‘D’, ‘F’, ‘Q’, ‘Z’, ‘X’, ‘P’ and ‘M’ while threatening to kill the officers who are doing their absolute best to act reasonably. They maintain professionalism while adjusting by the moment to the man’s erratic actions and nonsensical ramblings. In addition, they are acutely aware that they are perhaps, seconds from death.

    This is a perfect example of when reasoned behavior encounters unreasoned behavior in the real world. There is no precise way to resolve such an encounter. No mechanical application that can be employed.

    We are using this video to try and highlight reality for those who aren’t in the business of law enforcement. A business and profession that exists because normal people, reasonable people, can’t deal with the irrationally unreasonable. They need help.

    Police officers do a great job at that. I say that with no qualification attached. The sheer numbers of noncompliant, argumentative, armed and dangerous people dealt with by this nation’s police officers every minute of every single day is mind boggling. How well those situations are handled statistically, how few times officers’ resort to violence and force, is a testament to their valiant and compassionate efforts.

    People want simple when simple doesn’t exist. Watch and rewatch this video. Share it. What would you have done? What are the possible consequences?

  8. #18
    Member jd950's Avatar
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    I hate to say it, but Graham v. Connor is on life support. The Graham standard can be changed, and is being changed, by local and state legislators and by agency policies. It would not surprise me to see it changed by federal legislation soon. Sure, I still teach it in academy classes, but for how long? We are seeing statutes and policies with terminology that will take years to sort out through litigation.

    Police administrators mayors, governors and legislators see the protests and fear the fallout. When police administrators see a problem, they create new policies or begin rigidly enforcing existing policies. When politicians see problems, they pass new laws, issue executive orders or lean on their appointees to issue new policies. The actual efficacy of those policies and laws and the potential collateral damage to those required to apply them is a low priority.

    Just my opinion.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jd950 View Post
    I hate to say it, but Graham v. Connor is on life support. The Graham standard can be changed, and is being changed, by local and state legislators and by agency policies. It would not surprise me to see it changed by federal legislation soon. Sure, I still teach it in academy classes, but for how long? We are seeing statutes and policies with terminology that will take years to sort out through litigation.

    Police administrators mayors, governors and legislators see the protests and fear the fallout. When police administrators see a problem, they create new policies or begin rigidly enforcing existing policies. When politicians see problems, they pass new laws, issue executive orders or lean on their appointees to issue new policies. The actual efficacy of those policies and laws and the potential collateral damage to those required to apply them is a low priority.

    Just my opinion.
    Regardless of the status of the decision as legal precedent, the real world factors and analysis it’s based on have not changed. It’s one they got right.

    We are in the “liberal” part of the continual cycle of soft on crime /hard on crime. Soft in crime policies of the late 60s through early 80s produced high crime. The get tough cycle ran from the mid 80s to the mid to late 2000s. If historical trends hold, we are seeing the start of a decade of rising violent crime rates followed by a swing the other way when people get sick of the bullshit.

    If Graham goes away, it will eventually come back when crime spikes and the pendulum swings back to getting tough on crime as it always does.

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