DA/SA in a recent class...

[MattyD380]

Took an advanced concealed carry class this weekend, taught by Bob Jewell in Sharonville OH (just north of Cincinnati). While many PFers are, no doubt, much more advanced, I found the legal and mindset-related insights invaluable, as well as the range experience. Mr. Jewell was thorough, insightful and extremely knowledgeable, while making the class fun and encouraging. If you're somewhere between a noob and... well, a lot of you probably reading this... I feel like it'd be worth your time. Especially if you're near Cincinnati.

In any case...

Not surprisingly, I was the only one with a DA/SA pistol--Sig P239 in .357 Sig. Normally it'd be 9mm, but I stocked up on .357 Sig when it was still cheap, early Covid. To be clear, I'd never actually drawn and fired a gun from AIWB until today. Which is hard to believe. But ranges around here don't allow it.



With the recent thread on the merits/failings of DA/SA and various other modes of action, I felt like it was worth sharing my experience. Long story short: I feel like I shot fine, nor did I feel DA/SA was hindrance to achieving serviceable results. My averages for 6 timed draws/shots were under 3 seconds. My groups were pretty tight and I found it easy to hit a 5 X 8 index card at 5 yards. Moved back to 7 and 10, no problems. Shot at a smaller card (3 x 5?), no problems. The only one I missed, I think, was the very first shot I took. Followup shots in SA grouped nicely with the DAs.

Now, I realize that's not blisteringly fast or particularly impressive to many of you. I'll also acknowledge that when I really pushed myself to go fast on the first shot, my accuracy went down. Got a few draws/shots under 2 sec (ones that didn't count against the 6), but I missed the card; I can't yet combine the arm extension with the trigger pull. It's two separate actions, at this point.

So, I'll say that--for me and likely for most--DA is probably a limiting factor to speed on the draw shot. Especially when we're talking stock triggers. I'd venture to say I was more experienced (in terms of just shooting for accuracy) than the others in the class, so my draw-&-shoot results were still better--and that's just on the first shot. In SA, I feel like I had a clear advantage as far as shot placement vs. the other shooters, all of whom had SFA guns. Maybe that's just because I was a more experienced shooter, overall? Either way, I think the SA part of a DA/SA system is part of what makes it... good. You get a 1911 after the first shot.

All that said, I believe the most important benefits of DA/SA lie outside the realm of speed. The two times I've drawn my gun under duress, it was more of a "Oh shit, what should I do?" situation than just autonomously pumping rounds into a threat. On that point, Bob (the instructor) had an interesting perspective on competitive shooting: it's not the kind of muscle memory you necessarily want, in SD situations. There are decisions to made. And, to that end, I feel like DA/SA is a benefit; though certainly not a requirement. Like all things, there are pros and cons. Personally, I like the pros that come along with DA/SA. And the cons... well, it's a little slower on the first shot.

As far as DA/SA for novice shooters...

Thinking about the students in the class (I mean, there were only 4; consider these conclusions highly "qualitative"), I can surmise that pulling a long, 10+lb trigger would have been foreign to them. But after experiencing it a few times, I hypothesize that it wouldn't have a had a big impact on overall draw/shoot results. Maybe I'm wrong? Hell, maybe it would have been better? The one guy with a Smith SD9 was rushing things and spraying every round to the left. Could a heavier trigger have helped him slow down out of the holster? Regardless, a crisp SA trigger after the draw shot is probably more innately intuitive for all humans to shoot. Considering the "total package," I still think DA/SA gets unfairly lambasted as some barbarous anachronism that's only suitable for hipsters and Navy SEALS. Okay... off the soapbox.

Also, my P239 had no issues. Strangely, the guy with a Gen 5 G19 was having all kinds of issues, which surprised me. The guy with Smith SD9 had a few FTFeeds, and the gal with the VP9 had zero issues. She struggled at first, but I think she actually had the fastest time on target with one of her shots, toward the end.

So... if this is all beneath you, my apologies. But hopefully it's helpful/interesting/insightful at some level--to some people--especially in light of the recent discussion on DA/SA. Short of that... at least there's a cool picture of a Sig with Nill grips. Peace.

[loper77]

I think your instructor was spot on. A .15 split isn't always a good thing.

[Wise_A]

I would say you are correct. Look at HCM's on the H&K LEM trigger being a "people-management" trigger.

A common drill for this sort of thing is to shoot a target under time. At a certain point, an instructor or observer will shine a light or a laser on the target. The goal is to shoot fast, but stop firing as soon as the light comes on.

[Sammy1]

Nice write up, than you.

[RJ]

Great perspective and sounds like a good useful class. Thanks for sharing.

[Cory]

I don't think this is beneath any of us. Learning is awesome.

If you haven't been able to draw and shoot, I really recommend getting to a match of some kind. While immediately drawing and shooting is a part of matches, it's a small part. The occassional match isn't going to ingrain negative habits of blazing speeds that get you in a legal battle unless you're focusing on nothing but that. What it will do is give you some stress, make you think a little with a gun in your hand, and help you see what you're doing more.

If your local ranges don't allow drawing (mine don't either) find a USPSA match. They will allow drawing there. Even if you go strong side carry, there are benefits.

[CraigS]

I agree w/ Cory. I started competing in local IDPA 3 years ago. Just shot a match yesterday. The difference between just shooting at stationary paper is unbelievable. They come up w/ lots of different scenarios. Yesterday we had one stage w/ 7 targets roughly along a 30 ft line but at different distances. Plastic barrels at each end of the line. Used 3 mags w/ 6 rounds in each. One in the gun and one on each barrel. Basically you could shoot any way you wanted, (shoot on the move), (move, stop, and shoot, move) but you had to get to the other end of the line for your reload. Another stage had you sitting at a table, gun loaded and on the table. Had to shoot the first three targets while seated. Then get up and move to shoot the last 4 targets, two of which were behind barrels so you couldn't see them w/o moving. The variety is endless. The shooters are also widely ranging. I am 72 shooting a Beretta 92. There were to other old guys. One shooting his carry gun, a Sig 365 from an IWB holster. The other, a super long, long time shooter but who was heavily rear ended in his car 2 yrs ago. He now gets around w/ one of those wheeled walkers, and a cane. His perseverance to be there and compete was an inspiration.

[Hot Cereal]

This obsession with blazing fast draw to shot times is a product of the YouTube Kommando craze. Being fluid and accurate is more important than speed. Life isn’t a John Wick movie. Clint Smith doesn’t even know what a shot timer is and that guy knows a thing or two. It sounds like you’re doing fine. Being John Wick fast isn’t as big a deal as the YouTube Kommandos would have you believe.

DA/SA hate is based in lack of fundamentals, poor training, and/or myopic “Glock is the way” view points. I’m always wary of taking the words of XYZ operator as gospel when it comes to equipment selection. Many times their viewpoints are tainted because their experience is only with X weapons, equipment etc. due to administrative not operational decisions.

In someways using a fully cocked striker fired pistol that’s tucked inside the waistband creates a fairly hypocritical situational. What are we always told- don’t rely on mechanical safety devices, they can fail. Then, we toss that ideology aside and shove a loaded cocked and “semi-unlocked” SA striker fired gun in our pants with the muzzle pointed at important bits. I’m guilty of it. Getting a DA pistol to fire on its own without action manipulation is pretty difficult. Even if the safeties all fail, it’s difficult for the hammer to cock and release its self. I suppose this ideology is a paradox of sorts.

The 5906 I just picked up has seriously the best trigger in any ‘combat intended’ pistol I’ve ever shot. The SA reset is ridiculously short, crisp, defined and the DA pull is smooth, not too heavy and clean. Breaks at the same point as the SA pull. Why people bitch about these guns I have no idea.

[M2CattleCo]

P239s are awesome and their discontinuation is proof that Sig is retarded.

[MVS]

As to your point of DA/SA being a hindrance, I wouldn't say it is a hindrance to the trained. I have been helping with CPL classes this year. We actually see a wide range of people these days. From those who have never held a gun before, to those who "have been shooting my whole life". I was seeing one or two DA/SA guns per class and most of the time the people using them were shooting two distinct groups, one containing the holes from the DA first shots, one containing holes from their SA second shots. I tell them what to work on, but I figure most won't pursue it and unfortunately it is mostly beyond the scope of the class. I am glad to hear this wasn't the case for you.