ATF raids polymer 80.

[BehindBlueI's]

...there's no real guide as to how much 80% is.

That was actually my next question, as that popped into my head while thinking about it. 80% by man-hours? Material? I'm not sure how you'd have a bright line rule. I think pretty much everyone would agree that a steel ingot and a block of plastic is not a firearm and pretty much everyone would agree that a Glock doesn't cease being a firearm if the slide is removed and placed next to the frame. Where is the line drawn in the process between the two?

Anyway, I'd like to read the original search warrant before getting too fired up. At this point we don't know exactly what the issue was, if the regular kits were found to be out of compliance, if the company was shipping "special kits" that were more put together, or what. I don't trust the media to get it right, as it's a better story with the 'ghost gun' angle and narrative on one side and the "they are coming for your lowers" on the other.

[Bergeron]

The kicker is that 80% lowers have to be approved by the ATF as being 80% or less than complete and there's no real guide as to how much 80% is. They submit them for review and the ATF says yes or nay. So, they may be selling frames as 80% and the ATF opinion is it's more than 80%.

Wow, this! ATF has to approve the 80% as being "not a gun", and now ATF is raiding a business for selling an 80%, that they've specifically approved as an 80%, for being an actual gun.

[GyroF-16]

Instruction manual:
https://www.polymer80.com/CMS-Images...structions.pdf

Having skimmed the instructions (thanks @OlongJohnson), I’m puzzled by the following statement (the last sentence in the WSJ article):

“ The ATF previously gave Polymer80 permission to sell unfinished receivers. But the Buy Build Shoot Kits, which are advertised as having “all the necessary components to build a complete...pistol” weren’t submitted to the agency for approval, according to the application for the search warrant. These kits can be “assembled into fully functional firearms in a matter of minutes,” the warrant application says.”

So, the unfinished receiver in the kit was approved. But the kit that included all the other parts (including drill bits) necessary for the drilling, milling, and assembly is somehow the equivalent of a firearm? My reading of the instructions leads me to believe that preparation of the receiver and assembly would take a couple of hours (not “a matter of minutes”). And it looks like it would be kind of fun.

I also seriously doubt whether many (or ANY) of the perpetrators of crimes committed with guns made from 80% receivers did the actual milling and assembly themselves. Which means the illegal act was not the selling of the kit, but the subsequent transfer of the completed weapon (not sure it’s legally a “firearm”) to another person who then committed the crime.

But I guess that assumes too much knowledge of gun laws by the press and the public. But I DO assume significant knowledge of gun laws on the part of the ATF.

I’d like to see Polymer80 go to court and challenge the prosecution to assemble a kit into a gun in “a matter of minutes”. And watch the case fall apart right in front of the jury.

[Casual Friday]

That was actually my next question, as that popped into my head while thinking about it. 80% by man-hours? Material? I'm not sure how you'd have a bright line rule. I think pretty much everyone would agree that a steel ingot and a block of plastic is not a firearm and pretty much everyone would agree that a Glock doesn't cease being a firearm if the slide is removed and placed next to the frame. Where is the line drawn in the process between the two?

Anyway, I'd like to read the original search warrant before getting too fired up. At this point we don't know exactly what the issue was, if the regular kits were found to be out of compliance, if the company was shipping "special kits" that were more put together, or what. I don't trust the media to get it right, as it's a better story with the 'ghost gun' angle and narrative on one side and the "they are coming for your lowers" on the other.

It's 80% milled/machined, not man hours.

Wow, this! ATF has to approve the 80% as being "not a gun", and now ATF is raiding a business for selling an 80%, that they've specifically approved as an 80%, for being an actual gun.

Or, the kit contains a frame that hasn't been approved as being 80% or less.

[BehindBlueI's]

I also seriously doubt whether many (or ANY) of the perpetrators of crimes committed with guns made from 80% receivers did the actual milling and assembly themselves. Which means the illegal act was not the selling of the kit, but the subsequent transfer of the completed weapon (not sure it’s legally a “firearm”) to another person who then committed the crime.

Maybe. We can make assumptions but right now that's all we have. Of perhaps some, or no, interest to anyone I found this while trying to find the search warrant on Polymer80:

https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndil/pr...43871/download

Only tangentially related, but enough for it to come up in the Google search. "Scrap" was manufacturing illegal machineguns, apparently with the devices that go on the back of the Glock slide to convert it to full auto (which are sold online from abroad readily enough as "airsoft only" parts) and had some polymer lowers as well.

During that search, the ATF recovered approximately five firearms, over a
hundred Glock Conversion Devices, and various types of narcotics. In a recorded
interview, JOHNSON stated that the Glock Conversion Devices were his and he
knew that they converted firearms to fully automatic firing.

ATF agents recovered the following firearms in JOHNSON’s bedroom: a
Draco 7.62 x 39 millimeter pistol, a Glock 20 Gen4 10mm pistol with an installed
Glock Conversion Device, a Glock 21 .45 caliber pistol with an installed Glock
4
Conversion Device, and what appeared to be a homemade PFP400 Polymer 80 Glockstyle pistol with an installed Glock Conversion Device

Anyway, I'd still be interested in the actual search warrant to see what the issue was.

[mtnbkr]

My reading of the instructions leads me to believe that preparation of the receiver and assembly would take a couple of hours (not “a matter of minutes”). And it looks like it would be kind of fun.

I don't know about their AR receiver, but the Glock receivers take less than an hour to finish with common hand tools.

It is fun. Mine is a good shooter.

Chris

[OlongJohnson]

I think pretty much everyone would agree that a steel ingot and a block of plastic is not a firearm ...

Back in 2016, the CA state legislature passed a bill that said essentially any object that could be turned into a firearm receiver had to be serialized, tracked and reported as a firearm. It was referred to by residents as the "everything's a gun" bill, as any piece of metal or reasonably durable polymer large enough to be machined into a receiver was affected. Would have basically ended all manufacturing and distribution of materials in the state. Fortunately, Governor Moonbeam understood how dumb it was and did not sign it into law.

I also seriously doubt whether many (or ANY) of the perpetrators of crimes committed with guns made from 80% receivers did the actual milling and assembly themselves. Which means the illegal act was not the selling of the kit, but the subsequent transfer of the completed weapon (not sure it’s legally a “firearm”) to another person who then committed the crime.

It absolutely is a firearm. Presumably, if the "80 percent" unit is precisely at the "80 percent" limit, then any work done to move it toward completion would take it across the "80 percent" threshold and it would become a firearm at that point. Doesn't need to be finished, just changed in the direction of functional completion. At least that's how I would expect it to be interpreted. I'm not aware of any case law that hinged on that point regarding 80 percent construction, but BATFE is explicit that if an AR lower is even marked at the location of the "third hole" in a way that could be interpreted as "drill here," it is a machine gun. I'd expect a similar approach.

It's been a couple years since I was getting up to speed, but my recollection is that you can make and use a firearm yourself without serializing it, but transferring a non-serialized firearm to another person is a no-go. Of course, transferring a firearm to a prohibited person is also a no-go.

IANAL, as always.

[GyroF-16]

I don't know about their AR receiver, but the Glock receivers take less than an hour to finish with common hand tools.

It is fun. Mine is a good shooter.

Chris

Thanks for that perspective.
I guess the instructions, with all the cautions, makes it look more involved than it actually is.

[BehindBlueI's]

It's 80% milled/machined, not man hours.

I get that the question is "is this equal to or less than 80% machined", but how do you determine the percentage? By how much labor it takes to finish it? By how much material has to be removed?

[Casual Friday]

I get that the question is "is this equal to or less than 80% machined", but how do you determine the percentage? By how much labor it takes to finish it? By how much material has to be removed?

Material. We know what a 100% lower looks like. Only the ATF knows what an 80% lower looks like. That's why almost none of them are identical to another companies 80%. For example, some AR 80% lowers do not have the rear takedown pocket milled, and some do. They make a guess, submit it for approval and go from there.