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Thread: Firm grip = flinch low left. WTF

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Yung View Post
    Onsight Firearms Training are solid folks from what I hear, and should be fairly close to you.
    https://oftllc.us/events/category/new-york/list/
    https://oftllc.us/our-instructors/

    David Jenkins is further north but he has one of the most extensive training and instruction backgrounds in your state, to include a good chunk of it from Onsight.
    https://safeinrochester.com/
    https://safeinrochester.com/team/david-jenkins/

    One of our esteemed members, David S., created and continues to develop Firearms Training Hub, which is a very handy reference to locate quality classes around the country.
    https://www.firearmstraininghub.com/all-classes/
    Awesome thank you. Ironically enough I'm actually already signed up for a group defensive shotgun class with Onsight. I'll reach out to them to ask about a 1-1 pistol session. (EDIT: Already setup a lesson)

    David sounds great but Rochester is a looong ways away.
    Last edited by matto; 12-05-2020 at 10:30 PM.

  2. #22
    Holy crap, holy crap, holy crap.

    Cliff notes:

    Today I tried everything but nothing helped. I gave up in despair and shot my .22lr Browning Buckmark for 30 minutes. After that I magically shot 9mm fine. OMBWTFBBQ.


    Full version:


    I went to the range and tried everything: shoot the berm, watch the sights go up and down, ball and dummy (with mostly dummies) dry fire between shots. Here's a good thread on this subject with lots of other folks experiences btw: https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/2...omment-2347231

    However, after 2 hours of trying all those drills, nothing helped at all. All my targets looked like a comet tail headed low left. And the more tired I got it only seemed to get worse. I was really frustrated so I decided to stop.

    I was demoralized so I decided to see how well I could shoot with my 22 Buckmark - and I confirmed that I shoot it just fine. This was my second target that I shot at medium speed (not fast but not super slow surprise break either). No signs of problems pulling the gun off target with my trigger finger or flinching.

    Name:  buckmark1.jpg
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    This was the third target shooting the Buckmark at a much faster pace. Still awesome (for me).

    Name:  buckmark2.jpg
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    At this point I concluded that I need to give up on 9mm and just focus on 22 (steel challenge, etc). If some day I find an instructor who can fix me, fine, but until then I'm done wasting 9mm ammo.

    I decided to shoot one more 9mm target to take a picture to document how crappy I am with 9mm. I would show it to the instructor to argue it's not a trigger issue but a 9mm recoil-anticipation problem. And this is what I shot.

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    HOLY CRAP WTF? It's a little high but that group is A+++ compared to the garbage I had been shooting for the previous 2 hours. I proceeded to repeat it a several more times with similar results. Firm grip, loose grip, I had no issues with low-left. I even shot a whole mag at a fast pace with good results.

    So while I'm elated that I suddenly stopped anticipating, I'm still a little concerned that it's still mostly out of my control. It's not something I did differently. My subconscious brain activity just decided to stop anticipating and ruining my day. For all I know it will be back the next time I shoot. But hopefully if I continue to shoot the 22 a lot the pattern and muscle memory will get ingrained and become permanent.
    Last edited by matto; 12-06-2020 at 02:32 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by matto View Post
    Holy crap, holy crap, holy crap.

    Cliff notes:

    Today I tried everything but nothing helped. I gave up in despair and shot my .22lr Browning Buckmark for 30 minutes. After that I magically shot 9mm fine. OMBWTFBBQ.


    Full version:


    I went to the range and tried everything: shoot the berm, watch the sights go up and down, ball and dummy (with mostly dummies) dry fire between shots. Here's a good thread on this subject with lots of other folks experiences btw: https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/2...omment-2347231

    However, after 2 hours of trying all those drills, nothing helped at all. All my targets looked like a comet tail headed low left. And the more tired I got it only seemed to get worse. I was really frustrated so I decided to stop.

    I was demoralized so I decided to see how well I could shoot with my 22 Buckmark - and I confirmed that I shoot it just fine. This was my second target that I shot at medium speed (not fast but not super slow surprise break either). No signs of problems pulling the gun off target with my trigger finger or flinching.

    Name:  buckmark1.jpg
Views: 368
Size:  31.8 KB

    This was the third target shooting the Buckmark at a much faster pace. Still awesome (for me).

    Name:  buckmark2.jpg
Views: 378
Size:  31.3 KB

    At this point I concluded that I need to give up on 9mm and just focus on 22 (steel challenge, etc). If some day I find an instructor who can fix me, fine, but until then I'm done wasting 9mm ammo.

    I decided to shoot one more 9mm target to take a picture to document how crappy I am with 9mm. I would show it to the instructor to argue it's not a trigger issue but a 9mm recoil-anticipation problem. And this is what I shot.

    Name:  9mm_1.jpg
Views: 388
Size:  30.4 KB

    HOLY CRAP WTF? It's a little high but that group is A+++ compared to the garbage I had been shooting for the previous 2 hours. I proceeded to repeat it a several more times with similar results. Firm grip, loose grip, I had no issues with low-left. I even shot a whole mag at a fast pace with good results.

    So while I'm elated that I suddenly stopped anticipating, I'm still a little concerned that it's still mostly out of my control. It's not something I did differently. My subconscious brain activity just decided to stop anticipating and ruining my day. For all I know it will be back the next time I shoot. But hopefully if I continue to shoot the 22 a lot the pattern and muscle memory will get ingrained and become permanent.

    I didn’t see it mentioned what 9mm you are shooting, but is it a model that you can acquire a 22 conversion kit for? I’ve found rimfire practice to be of great value over the years. Some folks disagree with me on that, and make valid points, but I’ve never felt like a session with a 22 was wasted.

  4. #24
    Site Supporter MGW's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Kansas
    Assuming your mechanics are good.

    I have to constantly work on correcting preignition push. Shooting 22 helps. Shooting pellet guns helps.

    What has probably helped me more than anything is what Langdon taught in the video linked previously. Intentional ball and dummy where I know when the dummy round is coming. I’ve also used this with a lot of success with other shooter.

    I’ve used dryfire on the range in between live fire.

    I’ve also been known to double up my ear pro. That has helped.

    Believe it or not working on relaxing my face and neck muscles has helped too. Squinting in particular seems to encourage flinching.
    “If you know the way broadly you will see it in everything." - Miyamoto Musashi

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Jared View Post
    I didn’t see it mentioned what 9mm you are shooting, but is it a model that you can acquire a 22 conversion kit for?
    CZ 75 Shadow, so yes I suppose I could get the Kadet kit. I suspect shooting my 22 pistols will work just as well though?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGW View Post
    Believe it or not working on relaxing my face and neck muscles has helped too. Squinting in particular seems to encourage flinching.
    YES! I discovered that the anticipation was coming from from my arms and shoulders, not my wrists. My entire arms moved downward. And for whatever reason, having any tension in my body was allowing it to manifest. Relaxing everything from the top down was what allowed me to start shooting better as I mentioned in the original post. I think maybe it was like pretentioning the pathway so the flinch made it to my hands just a millisecond earlier when I was tensed up.

    I also found that I was more relaxed with both eyes open. Closing one eye takes tension and made it harder to follow the sights.

    It's funny because if you watch Jerry Miculek videos on shooting fast he teaches to tighten up everything (he specifically mentions the arms) to resist recoil. Maybe some day I'll get there, but for now that advice is wreaking havok.

  6. #26
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Brooklyn NY
    Also consider taking classes with Chris Fry: https://www.mdtstraining.com/
    He is also deep into combatives with Craig Douglas if you wish to go in that direction.

    I had a similar incident to yours this fall.

    I was teaching a female friend of mine to shoot a G19
    and she had hellatious flinch. She could not keep the bullets on the paper at 10 yards.
    and could not see her flinch. I gave her a heavy revolver (S&W Model 66) with a red dot.
    After just a few cylinders she went back to the Glock and was able to call her shots
    and fix her problem. I think the heavy long trigger helped her see what she was doing.
    "To achieve any significant technological breakthrough, much Derp must be endured." -Rich@CCC
    "Your shotgun is running a bit frenetic, you should add some lavender to your lubricant, that should calm it down." -Aray, Oils and Lotions SME


  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by matto View Post
    CZ 75 Shadow, so yes I suppose I could get the Kadet kit. I suspect shooting my 22 pistols will work just as well though?



    YES! I discovered that the anticipation was coming from from my arms and shoulders, not my wrists. My entire arms moved downward. And for whatever reason, having any tension in my body was allowing it to manifest. Relaxing everything from the top down was what allowed me to start shooting better as I mentioned in the original post. I think maybe it was like pretentioning the pathway so the flinch made it to my hands just a millisecond earlier when I was tensed up.

    I also found that I was more relaxed with both eyes open. Closing one eye takes tension and made it harder to follow the sights.

    It's funny because if you watch Jerry Miculek videos on shooting fast he teaches to tighten up everything (he specifically mentions the arms) to resist recoil. Maybe some day I'll get there, but for now that advice is wreaking havok.
    Big advantage to the 22 kit is that it’s the exact same trigger you’re using normally.

    I do not find excess tension to be helpful at all and have struggled with it myself. Learn to grip the gun, lock the wrists, but otherwise relax. Yes, it’s tough. Finding an instructor will absolutely shorten the process.

  8. #28
    A lot of great advice in this thread. Dry fire at speed is a great drill to utilize, it will help with sympatheticly moving the trigger with your whole hand (tensing up firing hand) i had this issue during live fire. I had to tell myself the recoil is going to happen, do not fight it, locked wrists, really strong support hand grip, firing hand with just enough tension to hold on so the grip doesn't slip around. I would do the measurement drill by hwansik kim to learn to let it recoil and then you return it. Not fighting it. In addition, video'ing the range time and watching it in slow motion will help you to see. Pay attention ti the last round slide lock back, doors it recoil up and stop like learning to do in the measurement drill?


    Quote Originally Posted by Jared View Post
    I didn’t see it mentioned what 9mm you are shooting, but is it a model that you can acquire a 22 conversion kit for? I’ve found rimfire practice to be of great value over the years. Some folks disagree with me on that, and make valid points, but I’ve never felt like a session with a 22 was wasted.

  9. #29
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Wokelandia
    Quote Originally Posted by Jared View Post
    I do not find excess tension to be helpful at all...
    This is really important, and I'm really glad you posted about it. As in other fighting arts, tension in the right places at the right times is necessary. But for me, tension is usually detrimental otherwise. I think people get tense because of unfamiliarity or because they are mimicking styles that cause tension. Often, and especially in males, tension comes from trying to look manly while shooting a gun.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    This is really important, and I'm really glad you posted about it. As in other fighting arts, tension in the right places at the right times is necessary. But for me, tension is usually detrimental otherwise. I think people get tense because of unfamiliarity or because they are mimicking styles that cause tension. Often, and especially in males, tension comes from trying to look manly while shooting a gun.
    I know for me it was rooted in two things:

    1: Trying to hold the gun absolutely perfectly still, frozen in place. Then I’d press the trigger S-L-O-W-L-Y, just building and building tension until I finally got a Bang. Jeez, no wonder I shot like shit. Learning to trust a wobble zone and working on my trigger control helped a ton.

    2: Trying way too hard to completely eliminate muzzle flip. I’d try to crush the gun to death worrying that a few degrees of muzzle rise was a critical error.

    Those two factors together did little for my shooting but make me miss. One dry fire drill that really helped me was holding the gun, and pulling the trigger during the start beep without disturbing the sights. Doing that helped me a ton and taught me a lot about how much tension to apply and with what muscles.

    ETA: I also found “The Test” and 25 Yard Bill Drills to be very helpful live.
    Last edited by Jared; 12-07-2020 at 06:44 PM.

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