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Thread: Firm grip = flinch low left. WTF

  1. #11
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    I hit low and left for years. Some things that helped me were 1) keeping a really tight grip with my support hand 2) relaxing my trigger hand/finger 3) shooting at 2" dot instead of silhouettes. Relaxing the trigger hand/finger is the tricky part. I just kind of let my mind go empty and focus on the sights. The part of the pistol that I "feel" the most is where my left (support) hand that presses against the edge of the backstrap. Hitting the 2" dots took a lot of concentration at first. It's easier than it was a year ago and I'm faster. I spent lots of time shooting at 3x5 notecards too, but for whatever reason the dots have helped me more than the cards did. I'm by no means a great shooter, but I'm a lot better than I was a couple of years ago--even one year ago.

    Also, pay attention to where the bullet impacts relative to your sights. If you think the bullet should hit top of the front sight at 7", but the sights are really set for "drive the dot" at that range, then you'll always shoot low regardless of your flinch. It took me longer to fully appreciate this last point that it should have.

    Lastly, shoot some ball and dummy drills. Load a mag with alternating live and dummy rounds. Shoot a live round, "shoot" a dummy round, tap rack, shoot a live round, repeat. This is not fun, but I think it helps. Right now I have a friend with a terrible flinch, but he refuses to do this because of how much it highlights his flaws, which, of course, is the point of doing it.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by matto View Post
    4,000 rounds new...


    But from what I've read it's not easy to diagnose and fix a flinch. This is even mentioned in the video referenced below - that many instructors have never experienced it and don't know how to correct it.
    I'm a newer shooter than you but have a couple of thoughts on your post...

    It is NOT difficult to diagnose a flinch. You just did and you're a new shooter. It's also a super common problem. I can't imagine that any reputable instructor hasn't seen it in their students and helped their students with it. Fixing it is considered "difficult" because it can take a lot of work on the part of the student.

    I consider pre-ignition push to be the biggest area of improvement I need to work on personally as well and as a right handed shooter I also flinch my shots low and left although I'm generally able to keep them in the 10 ring on "The Test" drill at 10 yards now.

    The two drills that have been helping me the most are:

    1) Dryfire- Trigger control at speed
    2) Live fire- Alternate Ball and dummy

    Better to google these than have me describe them.

    In my first month of shooting I was also frustrated by my low left flinch and noticed that a super light grip was yielding me a lot of X ring shots at my beginner distances. Wasting my time on two range sessions shooting that way only served to let me know I needed to fix my flinch and properly train/practice my shooting grip.

    Generally my first cold shot of the day at the time was a "bullseye" and then the flinch would crop up and worsen as my session continued in those first months.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Wow, that video was great, thank you. His points lined up exactly with my experiences.

    • It is not a trigger pull issue (where my trigger finger causes the gun to go off target). I have no problem with dry fire. But once I start live firing, the tactile response to my brain of the trigger about to break, and I flinch
    • His solutions were mostly mental. Yes, he said the weak hand support can help minimize the damage, but most if it was tricking your brain to not be able to react before the gun goes bang
    • I've observed that more of a firm wall the trigger has, the worse I shoot the gun. On a DA/SA gun I do as well with the DA as the SA because it's just along linear pull and at some point you're surprised by a break. But give me a gun with a firm wall to push through and I'm terrible


    Unfortunately, he admitted it's not easy to fix - he continues to struggle with it. He also points out that a lot of instructors don't understand it and don't know what to do with it.

    I'm quite pleased that I've already figured out how to mitigate it by keeping my grip more relaxed. I hoping I can work from there and build some positive muscle memory, and slowly start adding in more and more grip - left hand first.

  4. #14
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matto View Post
    I'm talking single shot.

    • If I shoot really slowly, so I'm surprised by the break, I hit dead center.
    • If I keep my arms and hands relaxed, I can pull the trigger with more urgency and still hit center
    • If I try to grip the gun firmly at all, or even thing of resisting recoil, my accuacy goes to complete sh!t
    A lot of people have confusion between gripping the gun hard and returning the gun after recoil. These are not the same thing, and aren't directly related unless the gun is slipping inside the grip, or the grip is coming apart. Gripping the gun hard doesn't "fight recoil" or return the gun. It can reduce flip, but locking the wrists has more effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    You need to use your muscles to return the gun to the target after the first shot. This should happen after the first shot is fired and before the second one. So, there's some critical timing that has to happen. That gets tricky when you try to shoot fast splits, like in the doubles drill. As you're learning to do this, sometimes the timing is wrong and you fire after you push the gun down, or you fire before the gun returns. This isn't a flinch. It's part of the learning process. As you develop your grip, stance, and relaxation, the amount of force needed gets smaller, and it starts to feel like "just letting the recoil happen".

    Here's a quote from Hwansik: "Most pistols have a high bore axis. Mixing in physics, when we fire the gun, there will be an upward force created by the leverage related to the bore axis and the grip axis. If the operator doesn’t push the gun down, the gun will stop higher than the original spot after a shot."

    There's some really good info about this on the PSTG, but it's behind a paywall.
    https://www.practicalshootingtrainin...urement-drill/
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  5. #15
    Site Supporter JRV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matto View Post
    4,000 rounds new.
    So about a year's worth of shooting? That's a little over 300 rounds per month. Just long enough to develop some bad habits.

    If I knew an expert to help me I'd hire them in a second. I've an in person lesson. I find they teach generic stuff. But from what I've read it's not easy to diagnose and fix a flinch. This is even mentioned in the video referenced below - that many instructors have never experienced it and don't know how to correct it.
    Sounds like you're around Poughkeepsie. If I were you, I'd check the regional training section of PF and see if anyone south of Albany or in West Connecticut holds or has attended classes. Another option will be checking with your local USPSA club(s). If you have local GMs, they'll either be instructors or know good instructors. If I can impart any helpful information over the internet... most "instructors" that teach carry classes or work at gun ranges are absolute garbage. They can teach a class of people to hit a big B27 target at 7 yards without probably shooting themselves. They have little-to-no diagnostic skills or experience, and very few have taken classes from real, nationally- or regionally-recognized instructors.

    If an instructor says they cannot fix a low-left flinch, they have no clue what they're talking about. Consequently, most people on local gun forums have no clue what they're talking about. PF has a much lower signal-to-noise ratio. "Low-left" is such a common problem with students that it's a meme.

    Fixing "milking" requires an understanding of how hard you should be grasping. Most people have no clue how to hold a gun, they just know what the grip looks like. You cannot feel me grabbing your hand over the internet. If I was doing a one-on-one training session with you, I would literally place my hand over your strong hand to show you how much force you should be applying. I would also show you how hard to squeeze your support hand by literally squeezing my hand over yours.

    No one can explain to you what a proper grip feels like, and until you feel one, you have no framework for "firm, but light enough to allow trigger finger isolation" on the strong hand and "absolutely crushing in order to minimize the effects of human error" on the support hand. A proper grip will prevent, or at least ameliorate, milking with the strong hand. But, those descriptions are just words until you actually feel what they mean.

    Flinches are easy to fix in-person. Flinches are usually one of two things: anticipation of concussion/recoil or a prophylactic attempt to control recoil. Sometimes, it's a combo of both. I used to have students just dump rounds in the berm five or six at a time, after learning a proper grip and athletic stance, until they saw a flash sight picture and sight-tracking in recoil. Shooting at a cadence without worrying about the accuracy helps people experience (1) concussion inoculation (a big component of flinches... when a student says they finally saw the sight pictures tracking through recoil, that means their eyes stayed open for the first time) and (2) how little muscle is needed, post-ignition, to get a return to zero. It's impossible to maintain pre-ignition pushes while shooting a string at cadence.

    I have what looks to be a good grip. If I fire slowly so there's a surprise break, I have fantastic accuracy. And I recently discovered that if I fire quickly I'm also decent - as long as I keep my arm and arm muscles mostly relaxed. Clamp down on the grip at all (even with just the left hand) and I'm low, left, or both.
    You said it. You have what looks to be a good grip. It is not, however, a good grip. You should never have to fire with a "surprise break." You should be in control at all times. A surprise break is not in control. A proper grip imparts control.

    Good luck on your search for an instructor!
    Well, you may be a man. You may be a leprechaun. Only one thing’s for sure… you’re in the wrong basement.

  6. #16
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    Sep 2018
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    Arizona
    Quote Originally Posted by matto View Post
    If I knew an expert to help me I'd hire them in a second. Any idea how to find a good one? I'm roughly 1.5 hours north of NYC.
    Onsight Firearms Training are solid folks from what I hear, and should be fairly close to you.
    https://oftllc.us/events/category/new-york/list/
    https://oftllc.us/our-instructors/

    David Jenkins is further north but he has one of the most extensive training and instruction backgrounds in your state, to include a good chunk of it from Onsight.
    https://safeinrochester.com/
    https://safeinrochester.com/team/david-jenkins/

    One of our esteemed members, David S., created and continues to develop Firearms Training Hub, which is a very handy reference to locate quality classes around the country.
    https://www.firearmstraininghub.com/all-classes/

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by NoTacTravis View Post
    It is NOT difficult to diagnose a flinch.
    Right, I should have said "fix".

    The two drills that have been helping me the most are:

    1) Dryfire- Trigger control at speed
    2) Live fire- Alternate Ball and dummy
    Thanks for sharing your experiences! I did a ton of dry fire. I had my pistol for about 6 weeks before having access to a range, and I spent that time dry firing. I'm not sure it was a good use of time. I learned how to minimize disturbance to the sights. But once the gun started going *bang* my brain freaked out and now flinches.

    I'll try more ball and dummy drills and see what happens. At first I thought these were the magic ticket. But as he points out in the video above, its not as simple as "don't move on the click". A downward dip *after* the click isn't bad. It's only the pre-click dip that is a problem. There are other videos that say the same - If your goal is to be motionless on the *click* then you will suck at double taps.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by JRV View Post
    So about a year's worth of shooting? That's a little over 300 rounds per month. Just long enough to develop some bad habits.
    Two months So about 500/week. And I wasted the first 6 weeks of that dumping ammo hoping to magically get better. It included several competitions (USPSA, IDPA, Steel Challenge) - mostly because it was the only way to get range time. The club allowed non-members to shoot competitions, but not show up to practice with a target.

    Then I gained membership to a range so I spent the last 2 weeks focused on diagnosing my problems. I identified the flinch and started working on fixing it. I'm already a lot better now that I figured out the problem.

    most "instructors" that teach carry classes or work at gun ranges are absolute garbage. They can teach a class of people to hit a big B27 target at 7 yards without probably shooting themselves. They have little-to-no diagnostic skills or experience, and very few have taken classes from real, nationally- or regionally-recognized instructors.
    This is my experience as well. Pulling one random local instructor out of a hat is almost guaranteed to be less helpful than youtube + internet forum discussions.

    But that doesn't mean I should try to find a good one. I appreciate the pointers.

    Flinches are easy to fix in-person. Flinches are usually one of two things: anticipation of concussion/recoil or a prophylactic attempt to control recoil. Sometimes, it's a combo of both. I used to have students just dump rounds in the berm five or six at a time, after learning a proper grip and athletic stance, until they saw a flash sight picture and sight-tracking in recoil. Shooting at a cadence without worrying about the accuracy helps people experience (1) concussion inoculation (a big component of flinches... when a student says they finally saw the sight pictures tracking through recoil, that means their eyes stayed open for the first time) and (2) how little muscle is needed, post-ignition, to get a return to zero. It's impossible to maintain pre-ignition pushes while shooting a string at cadence.
    See? This little gem of wisdom is the kind of thing you find on the internet. Thanks. I'm going to give it a try.

    I forgot to add - what helped me most so far is focusing on not blinking, and watching the sights go up and down. Big difference. I'm still failing when I "grip" the gun, but I'll try gripping with just the left hand and see how it goes.

    Also - Bob Vogel talks here about how to grip with your strong hand here. Not "like a monkey grabs a hammer", but with a "pinch grip". But I find it makes no difference for me (so far) in terms of the flinch.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=688t...=youtu.be&t=90

  9. #19
    My understanding of the ida behind Ball and Dummy is that it slowly convinces your brain that the round that goes bang is really the same thing as the one that goes click. Think of it like the auditory version of the visual learning problem of learning to shoot with both eyes open for people who see two images and over time merge them into a single one.

    Round goes BANG! and maybe you flinched. Next one is done within 3 seconds and just goes "click". Your brain realizes it didn't need to flinch even though all the other inputs were the same. Take a pause before the next live round so the shots don't all run together. Your brain over time starts seeing the click and the bang as the same thing. You're showing it immediately after the BANG! that "nope it's really no big deal. Just a click. Nothing to flinch at here."

    ^At least this is the interpretation of the drill that I've been operating on for the last few months.

    Personally I try to do a 10 round mag with 5 and 5 after every single drill that's all live ammo. For me it's a little by little accumulation week by week of my brain not differentiating between click and bang.


    ..oh and dryfire is your friend. Translating my dryfire progress to live fire progress has been the other major focus of my efforts these days. Dryfiring at the range in addition to at home has been the biggest help to me linking them together so that my live fire looks more like my dryfire hero self of undisturbed sights.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by NoTacTravis View Post
    My understanding of the ida behind Ball and Dummy

    ...

    Dryfiring at the range in addition to at home has been the biggest help to me linking them together so that my live fire looks more like my dryfire hero self of undisturbed sights.
    I'm sold. I think my problem with dry fire was doing 6 weeks of it with zero life fire. Once I started the live fire, it became a whole new thing.

    I'm going to:

    1. Do a shit load of ball and dummy...
    2. Do dry firing *at the range* between mags.

    FYI: Langdon also has a pretty good video on trigger on recoil anticipation
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StE60VgxR74

    I've been doing his "poor man ball and dummy drill" and it helped a little..... maybe?

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