Right.....with a sucky DA to boot......Originally Posted by P30
Right.....with a sucky DA to boot......
I expected, and received, the same level of accuracy on DA and SA when I was shooting them a lot. I'm sure I suck ass now because it's such a perishable skill and I haven't messed with TDA for awhile. What was different was the time it took to get that accuracy, the splits.
Not particularly impressive to many here, but I did a 9 shot group (one magazine +1 in the chamber) from a P220 into a 1" square at 10y with a decock between shots. It was reaaal slow fire. It required so much concentration I was tired when I was done and had sweat on my forehead. But I did it. So I do expect the same accuracy, just not the same splits.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
I strongly doubt I could replicate that performance...because I don't think I could do it in SA either, but who knows, maybe with enough forehead sweat.
I think your point about slower splits (or really maybe just slower trigger press, since every shot after the first should be easier/faster) is very well taken, though, an I think that's where a lot of the "people management/safety" benefit to TDA comes in - you're required to be more careful with that first shot, and you know it.
Haha. No, it's an interesting discussion.My wife has a P365. She has taken one class beyond basic CCW. That gun fits her very well. She does not Dry Practice, nor is she interested in taking any more training classes. But she can put 5/5 rounds inside a 5" circle at 5 yards, cold, consistently, with 115 Gold Dots. She's not going to put in the effort to learn a TDA, it's just not going to happen. I would submit that for "most" new shooters, which judging by 2020 gun sales is a huge amount, are better paired up with a modern SFA gun whether it be a Glock, a S&W, Sig, anything, really, than a TDA pistol.
Hell why are we even arguing. 99% of people that buy a gun will shoot it once, if at all, then put it in the sock drawer. I should probably get back to Dry Practice. I'll shut up now.
Obviously one should go with a gun they shoot well with and feel safe/comfortable with, regardless of other factors. But... I'd venture to say that a P365, like the rest of the 320 line, is an SAO gun. So, again, people shoot SA better than DA. And better than half-cocked strikers, like Glocks. Personally, I'd want a safety on such guns... but... that's a whole different conversation, I suppose.
My argument for TDA is that you're getting a superior/easier to shoot trigger for all but the first shot... and for most shooters, they're probably not gaining a whole of accuracy on that first shot, by staying with a Glock, M&P, etc. For a P320, VP9, PPQ, yeah, those mitigate the typically mushy SFA trigger AND the heavy first pull... but... I feel like you lose some measure of safety, without a manual safety. This is all theoretical, of course. But if not for theoretical discourse on guns... what is Pistol Forum for?
I was just trying to see what a particular load would do and realized I had something big going on at the personal skill level. I almost stopped after 5 shots until I saw what I'd done. Note this was a zero stakes situation. I was on an indoor range completely alone with nothing on the line...but it remains one of my most cherished "personal best" moments.I strongly doubt I could replicate that performance...because I don't think I could do it in SA either, but who knows, maybe with enough forehead sweat.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
I know I don’t gain anything with most striker fired triggers over what I can get on a DA shot from a good DA gun. Good DA means the trigger doesn’t stack at the end or have any nasty hitches in it. It also means reasonable in weight. I consider a Beretta 92 with a D spring to have a perfectly reasonable weight. I can manage the old standard 20# spring from the M9 pretty well as long as there’s no stacking.
For @RJ
I’ve been a TDA dude since before I found P-F. One of the reasons I loved this place initially was because I could talk TDA and not get told to go sit in the corner like some other sites did. I’ve been on a 25 yard kick the last couple of weeks, inspired by a Lucky Gunner blog post.
Last weekend I was running a 22 conversion kit on a bone stock Beretta 92F-XR. I was shooting 2” dots at 7 yards, one DA, one SA, decock and repeat. I do this a lot with the 22 kit and that gun. Anyway, I was loading the mag up for another run. The trailer I was storing my ammo on (out on the farm shooting into a backstop dad piled up with the tractor). Realized I was about 25 yards away from the IDPA target I was using as a backer. So I dropped the slide, aimed, fires a SA shot at the 4” circle on that target. Walked up there and I was about half an inch outside the circle. Ok, challenge accepted, here we go.
I didn’t shoot another 2” dot that day. I just kept slinging lead at that 4” circle, hitting it or missing it but staying in the head box. I got brave and shot a 5 shot group DA only, decocking every shot. Guess what? Couldn’t really tell the difference between that group and the ones I had shot with 5 SA shots, or the ones that had been one DA and one SA.
So “for me” the DA shot is not a hindrance to marksmanship. As a matter of fact, I’d wager that I could shoot better groups SAO, DAO, or DA/SA from a 92 or PX4 at any distance exceeding 15 yards better that “I” could shoot with any Glocks I’ve owned (including 3 different G34s). Yes, I’m probably in a tiny minority. No, I absolutely don’t expect you to emulate me (no one should ever emulate me). It’s just that even with “two separate triggers” on a TDA, I shoot both of them better than I can work a Glock trigger, or a 320 trigger, or an M&P trigger....
I also realize that means my trigger control with a SFA gun is deficient. I’m just too lazy to learn a SFA trigger when I’ve already got a setup that’s doing everything I want it to do.
Benefits of TDA:I gotcha, no worries. It's all good.
But in the interest of spirited debate, let me ask the broader question, that I asked in 2016, again: (this isn't aimed at "you" @olstyn specifically, but to everybody in the thread.)
If you are a .civ shooter, and not law enforcement or military, what are the benefits of having a TDA, i.e. a pistol with a stiff first trigger pull and a lighter one for all subsequent shots? Why would you opt for additional cost and complexity of a TDA over a SFA design? Why would you want to "do a little bit of work" if you didn't have to? Wouldn't that time be better spent in mastering trigger control?
1. Safety, manual of arms: With any hammer fired gun, you can see or feel the mechanical condition of the gun. With a TDA You can mechanically control this condition without putting your finger on the trigger, i.e. thumbing the hammer. This allows total confidence while reholstering, and leads to point 2.
2. Safety, mechanical: I mainly carry appendix. If the gun goes bang while reholstering (due to something getting into the trigger guard) or while holstered (due to catostrophic mechanical failure) I could DIE. the ability to thumb the hammer prevents the former possibility, and the fact the gun is mechanically decocked prevents the second. However unlikely either of these possibilities are, they could happen, and the stakes are tremendous. I carry a gun basically all the time I am not in my home, adding up to thousands upon thousands of hours. By contrast the time I spend actually shooting said gun in self defense has so far been 0 minutes. Therefore, eliminating a negative outcome while carrying/reholstering/etc. Is worth a small decrease in shootability.
3. Safety, shooting. DA is more of a "thinking trigger". I wont go into it since Dagga Boy said it best in his thread on this forum you can look up.
4. Shootability: I am not an A class shooter, not even close at this time. I find the first shot to be just as shootable as any other action type, and the DA pull allows for a bit more "agression" on the draw. There might be a small performance decrase on the first shot SHO/WHO, but thats pretty much it. However, I can shoot my guns in SA with more accuracy and speed than I can almost any striker. The strikers that I have found give equal performance to my TDA's in SA (p365xl, vp9 so far, APX fairly close) are literally single action guns with no safety, which I find to be inferior for serious use due to points 1 and 2 above.
A gadgeted Glock comes close in safety but still not as safe as a TDA, and FOR ME lags behind in shootability, especially for more precise shots.
5. Dryfire, maintaining proficiency: i dont know about you, but sometimes (ok most of the time) I dont do as much dryfire as I want to on a daily/weekly basis. However, if I am lazy I find it is more likely I will do at least a little dryfire with a TDA, since you can just continually pull the trigger, not having to worry about racking the slide each time. When I dont shoot for long periods, I typically find my DA shots are closer to my personal standards (i.e. degrade less from not shooting) than the SA shots, which is surely explained by this dry fire tendency.
6. Versatility of skill: generally speaking, if you can shoot a DA well you can shoot most anything well. I find I can switch to SAO or strikers with just a bit of familiarization, with surprisingly little performance drop in most cases. As someone who enjoys shooting lots of different types of guns, this is a big benefit to me.
In conclusion, TDA has a number of benefits, especially benefits to safety while carrying which we all do exponentially more than actually shooting. The only downside to me is slightly degraded performance on SHO/WHO first shot, and the improved performance I get from the rest of shots being SA way more than makes up for that. I dont really find it to be more work at all, since I can be more lazy and get in more dry fire reps, which I feel more than makes up for the perceived "learning two trigger pulls" which is itself mostly a nothingburger, but going into that would take another very long post.
I will say a TDA isnt a great choice for non-enthusiasts who have no interest in practicing. However, such an individual is going to suck regardless of what action type they are armed with.
Last edited by TicTacticalTimmy; 12-05-2020 at 06:55 PM.
Does this have to turn into another TDA vs. striker debate? With a TDA with a DA pull 7lbs or less, I have no problem making any shot I can in SA mode, and no slower. Heavier DAs require a bit more care, but it’s not a big deal.
The primary difference is the manual of arms of a decocker.
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
@RJ and others. I'm just going to leave this here:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....be-on-triggers
#FearNotTheDoubleActionShotI gotcha, no worries. It's all good.
But in the interest of spirited debate, let me ask the broader question, that I asked in 2016, again: (this isn't aimed at "you" @olstyn specifically, but to everybody in the thread.)
If you are a .civ shooter, and not law enforcement or military, what are the benefits of having a TDA, i.e. a pistol with a stiff first trigger pull and a lighter one for all subsequent shots? Why would you opt for additional cost and complexity of a TDA over a SFA design? Why would you want to "do a little bit of work" if you didn't have to? Wouldn't that time be better spent in mastering trigger control?
The DA trigger breaks at the same spot as the SA trigger on all my TDA guns. It's not really as hard as folks make it out to be. If one is having issues connecting with the All Important First Shot, then one should practice that until the problem goes away. I prefer having a DA trigger because #1 I shoot it better and #2 there just might be a time where I've suddenly realized that I don't need to shoot whom or what ever I'm pointing a gun at. I'd rather "do a little more work" than make an irreversible choice that results in a Negative Outcome.
Also, cops are civilians too.
Last edited by Wheeler; 12-05-2020 at 08:09 PM.
Men freely believe that which they desire.
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