Dare I say redesign the P250 maybe a tweener, like between p365 and subcompact? The old Sphinx 2000 offered a subcompact Cz75 if you will, and they offered a subcompact Alpha, which to mee resembled a smaller P07. It fet great in the hand. I would like to see more of these offered as well and plenty of room in the market. I wonder what Sig will do with the 2022, if it will get redesigned and updated and the line expanded?
There is also a FAST coin in the avatar.Originally Posted by Navin Johnson
I think people make a bigger deal of this than it truly is. Do you have to put in a little bit of work to get decent results with TDA?
Yes.
Is it an insurmountable problem for people who aren't going to put in thousands upon thousands of hours of training and become A class or higher?
Speaking as a sample size of one, I'd say no - I'm only at the upper end of C class in Production. (I've had a few classifier scores that have crept into B class territory, but to date, never enough in a row to actually get me out of C.) I get good hits with a TDA pistol out of the holster roughly X times/match where X is the number of stages, and that was true even when I was a U and then a D. I did a decent amount of dry DA presses/wall drill early on in order to get used to how the trigger worked, but beyond that, nothing special.
TDA is not rocket surgery - it's just learning to pull the trigger straight back without disturbing the sights too much...or, you know, learning to shoot a pistol. Much like every a manual transmission car's clutch is a little bit different from every other one, every trigger is a little bit different, right? I would be willing to bet that if we spent an hour on the range together with you shooting my P99 and me shooting one of your Glocks, we'd both be able to at least be baseline competent by the end of the hour. (I have never live fired a Glock, and have only dry fired one or two of them briefly.) The trouble is that we'd have to do everything from the low ready because you're wrong-handed so none of the holsters would transfer. Well, that and you're in FL.
I gotcha, no worries. It's all good.I think people make a bigger deal of this than it truly is. Do you have to put in a little bit of work to get decent results with TDA?
Yes.
Is it an insurmountable problem for people who aren't going to put in thousands upon thousands of hours of training and become A class or higher?
Speaking as a sample size of one, I'd say no - I'm only at the upper end of C class in Production. (I've had a few classifier scores that have crept into B class territory, but to date, never enough in a row to actually get me out of C.) I get good hits with a TDA pistol out of the holster roughly X times/match where X is the number of stages, and that was true even when I was a U and then a D. I did a decent amount of dry DA presses/wall drill early on in order to get used to how the trigger worked, but beyond that, nothing special.
TDA is not rocket surgery - it's just learning to pull the trigger straight back without disturbing the sights too much...or, you know, learning to shoot a pistol. Much like every a manual transmission car's clutch is a little bit different from every other one, every trigger is a little bit different, right? I would be willing to bet that if we spent an hour on the range together with you shooting my P99 and me shooting one of your Glocks, we'd both be able to at least be baseline competent by the end of the hour. (I have never live fired a Glock, and have only dry fired one or two of them briefly.) The trouble is that we'd have to do everything from the low ready because you're wrong-handed so none of the holsters would transfer. Well, that and you're in FL.
But in the interest of spirited debate, let me ask the broader question, that I asked in 2016, again: (this isn't aimed at "you" @olstyn specifically, but to everybody in the thread.)
If you are a .civ shooter, and not law enforcement or military, what are the benefits of having a TDA, i.e. a pistol with a stiff first trigger pull and a lighter one for all subsequent shots? Why would you opt for additional cost and complexity of a TDA over a SFA design? Why would you want to "do a little bit of work" if you didn't have to? Wouldn't that time be better spent in mastering trigger control?
Here's a different take on it...
There was a novice next to me at my last class shooting a TDA of some kind, Sig maybe. He was very proud of it. He could not get a first hit on target for nothing. At lunch he asked the instructor, what should I do? He was told ‘sell it and buy a modern pistol.”
Lastly, in the spirit of ‘lighting a candle’ I got a lot of good info out of this older thread from 2016:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....-Trigger-Pulls
My wife is a novice. She comes to the range with me, sometimes. I hand her a 92, a PX4, BHP, 1911 (even in .45) she puts groups on paper at 10 yards. Not super tight, but shot groupings nonetheless. A Glock? She hits... the paper.
If she decocks the 92? Yeah, she sucks with it. But she doesn't shoot it any worse than she does a Glock--and a Glock's trigger doesn't get better.
Not to pick on Glocks--I know they shoot well in the hands of "a master"--but Glocks and M&Ps comprise the vast majority of pistols I see at local ranges. And just about every target looks like they're shooting a sawed-off shotgun. Hypothesis: they'd shoot better with TDA guns, thanks to the SA capability; and they wouldn't shoot much worse on the first shot than they already do.
@RJ it's a "decision-making" trigger when you need to make decisions, and a "shooting" trigger when you need to shoot.
"The victor is not victorious if the vanquished does not consider himself so."
― Ennius
For me personally, I was primarily concerned with safety when I was a new shooter, and right or wrong (no matter how much research we do, none of us really know what we don't know at that stage), I thought that TDA was how that concern fit best in my world, so I went to some gun shows and gun shops, put my hands on various TDA guns (IIRC I was looking primarily at SIG, HK, and Walther), and decided that the Walther offerings fit my hands best. (Again, don't know what you don't know at that point, but it seems to have worked out for me.)
As far as "doing a little bit of work" goes, it's my view that you have to do a little bit of work to learn any trigger, except possibly the straight-up cheat mode that is a tuned 2011. (If anybody ever offers to let you shoot theirs, say yes - it's a whole different experience.) Like I said, I did wall drill until I was satisfied that I could mostly not move the sights in DA, then went to the range and confirmed that it had worked. YMMV of course, but I feel like once you learn the DA trigger, the SA part is pretty easy.
Most people I see at the square range suck. We must shoot at the same range because I see the same shotgun targets. Hell it amazes me people can put rounds into the target carriers, or worse, the damn ceiling.
My wife has a P365. She has taken one class beyond basic CCW. That gun fits her very well. She does not Dry Practice, nor is she interested in taking any more training classes. But she can put 5/5 rounds inside a 5" circle at 5 yards, cold, consistently, with 115 Gold Dots. She's not going to put in the effort to learn a TDA, it's just not going to happen. I would submit that for "most" new shooters, which judging by 2020 gun sales is a huge amount, are better paired up with a modern SFA gun whether it be a Glock, a S&W, Sig, anything, really, than a TDA pistol.
Hell why are we even arguing. 99% of people that buy a gun will shoot it once, if at all, then put it in the sock drawer. I should probably get back to Dry Practice. I'll shut up now.
Last edited by RJ; 12-05-2020 at 05:21 PM.
Ok, just one more comment: The counter argument to the "stiff" trigger is that a "stiff" trigger is not a barrier to shooting. From what I recall, the "startle" reflex easily can overcome even the stiffest DA pull.
What's importance in terms of "threat management" and more of a detterent to a ND/AD/UD is the length of the press, not it's weight, as I've been told...?
Hence me trying to work through a P30SK LEM V1, with a relatively light 1" press, from around 2015 to 2017. I ended up selling it because I could not mentally come to grips with it. (I will freely admit that shooting a VP9 in USPSA and attempting to carry the P30SK was a stupid idea. Maybe if I'd have bought a P30 LEM V1 and messed with the springs, I might have done better. But I didn't know then what I (barely) know now...but what might have been...
PS did you get the WiFi stuff sorted out?
Last edited by RJ; 12-05-2020 at 05:26 PM.
I see TDA as a compromise.
You give up a little precision on the first shot so you can carry the gun in a safer, more "de-escalated" condition--but it's still ready to shoot, when/if you need it. Then... you get a single action gun. Which, objectively, shoots better than just about any other action. I like Guererro's take on it as a "decision making" trigger. I had a recent situation where I drew my gun; the added "detente" of DA was a comfort. No shots were fired.
Another thing...
I get the sense there's this... expectation... of experiencing zero change in accuracy between the first and second shot (with TDA). I guess I just never saw it like that; I never expected that from that system. To put it another way: if a DA "crunch" was intended to shoot as well as an SA "tick"--why even include SA on the gun? And that's a rhetorical question... I believe the answer is that SA gives most people greater accuracy.
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