What's your definition of, or threshold for, range and gun-handling safety?

[peterb]

I was in a class where I swept someone with a SIRT and was corrected. They thought the SIRT and blue guns should be treated as regular guns.

I'd think that would depend on the skill being taught. Gun handling 101 and force-on-force are very different animals.

[rob_s]

Another follow-on, do you have different safety standards for yourself vs. others? For example, if you have an unloaded gun in your hand are you ok with sweeping yourself but still would not sweep others?

and this is about more than sweeping, FWIW.

What about things like dedicated bagging/unbagging areas on a range? Is a brief at every event a necessity? Good idea? waste of time?

[Shokr21]

I'd have to say that I'm as close to zero tolerance as possible in regards to muzzle and overall weapons safety.

I consider any gun loaded at all times (as we all should).

I strive to never muzzle myself or anyone around me. I'm not saying I've never swept myself while holstering, but it's something I try to minimize or rather eliminate.

I get nervous when we use "rubber ducks" (rubberized m16/m4) in training and some idiot thinks it's completely ok to point the damned thing at my head. I know that nothing will come of it, but it still bothers me. The military is a terrible place for weapons safety, we put a blank adapter on a weapon or leave the bolt out of it and people think it's completely ok to disregard all weapons safety rules. It drives me insane!

A weapon is a mode of destruction, treat it as such and nothing else and we'll get along just fine. Act in a safe manner always. Treat the weapon as if you were on the other end of it. The golden rule equated to firearms if you will.

ETA:
A safety brief is and always will be mailed in by people who have heard and seen it all (or so they think). I do think it's important for competitions and ranges where not everyone is familiar with each other or proper procedures. A safety brief is a necessity in my mind.

[Sparks2112]

I spend a large majority of my day having customers point empty firearms at my nuts. For some reason the fact I just checked empty is small comfort to me.

As a result I'd like to think I've developed a hyper awareness of my muzzle direction at all times.

[JAD]

The four rules exist to prevent unintentionally shooting something or someone. They are effective to the degree that they are observed, proportionally; in other words, if they are absolutely observed, they are absolutely effective. Deviations always detract from the absolute, but shooting isn't an absolutely safe activity, and most people who engage in it know that.

'All guns are always loaded' can be practically applied as "never tell me (or yourself) "it's OK, it isn't loaded."" In other words, it may or may not be loaded; but don't break rule three just because you think it isn't. I am tolerant of dry fire, by myself and other persons, without the encumbrance of a training barrel (though they're certainly a good idea and I do own one) -- but I don't break rule 3 when I do it, and I don't like other people breaking rule 3. I always 1/100th expect a 'bang' when rules one and two are broken at the same time. It's a little unnerving, but it's good to take dry fire seriously.

Rule 2 is similar -- I'm tolerant of breaking it intentionally but if others or I appear to be breaking it unintentionally I get really concerned. This came up recently for me when messing with a Browning High Power -- I had to slow down my reloads because for whatever reason I wasn't convinced I was in hard register when going full speed. I didn't actually catch myself, but I had a notion.

Rule 3 is more absolute for me. I guess I am moderately willing to destroy my butt cheek, heel, and calf; when I holster at 3:30, I may be covering them a bit. I don't like it, but that's what it takes for me to wear an IWB holster and an IWB is what it takes for me to CCW, so it's a pretty conscious choice. AIWB is messy; I'm sure it will be discussed enough in this thread. Other than holster-related stuff, I am completely intolerant of all sweeping, in myself and in others. Other than as related to holstering, I can't think of a reason you should ever have to even flirt with sweeping. In training, I expect the trainer to have absolute muzzle discipline; if he has to demonstrate something that requires pointing in, I expect him to use a blue gun or a slide-less frame. Rule three to me is really the core rule; everything else can go to hell, and if you have good enough muzzle discipline you'll do no more than startle the horses.

I am cautious about rule 4 both on the range and when thinking through engagement scenarios. I try to think about what direction I would step when I'm in the stop and rob, in order to create the best possible non-cashier backstop.

[BaiHu]

I think the 4 rules are incredibly important and as doctorpogo said, especially if they are observed absolutely.

Now that I've donned my flame retardent suit on, I will add that I am hyper aware when I am around people that are new to me or people that I know have poor booger-hook-discipline or muzzle control, b/c they are the most important 2 on a square range. I'm already assuming it is loaded, since we're in a range and I'm quite certain that 3 of the 4 sides of the square are relatively 'safe' to shoot towards. However, if I'm shooting with people I trust, like rsa-otc and TGS as well as other people in my local area, I tend to let my guard down. This doesn't mean that I don't look/pay attention, it's just that I feel that I've developed enough trust in them, that I'm not 'watching them like a hawk.'

That being said, I have a friend of mine this past Friday muzzle me as he was taking his gun out of his case and he had no clue that he muzzled me, but I recognized that his finger was indexed on the slide.

So, what do you say and how do you say it? I've seen some people lose their sh*t before and one time my own friend lost his sh*t on me b/c he thought I did something.

What I'd like to add here is how do you handle it if it is a stranger vs an acquaintance/friend? Especially if you're in a range like mine, where the RSO is everyone that is present and there is no designated RSO with a badge/gun/authority?

FWIW, I shoot from AIWB even though I can't carry in NJ, but I've also developed my own little contortion to minimize flagging/sweeping my Johnson:
1. I keep my thumb on the hammer during the whole re-holstering process (I learned this from TGS and I know people who do it whether it is a hammer/gadget/striker indicator 'pin').
2: I point the muzzle away from my body in b/w my feet.
3. I suck my stomach in and this tends to pull the opening of the holster toward me and the muzzle away from me.
4. I smoothly push the muzzle down and forward pushing the muzzle away from my body and pressing the grip into my belly.

When drawing, I do everything the same except sucking in my belly and having my thumb on the hammer-it is flagged against my belly.

[ToddG]

For example, what's your tolerance level for being swept? for sweeping other? Is it OK to sweep a foot with an empty gun but not a head with a loaded gun, or what is your in-between? Do you have a different definition of "swept" than "pointed at"?

In my classes I always tell people that the muzzle rule is the golden rule. You can break all the others simultaneously and worst case scenario is you'll have an embarrassingly loud noise. Pointing guns at others is never OK. It's a bright neon sign that the handler isn't aware of what he's doing and as such isn't someone I want to be around.

Having said that, I've been to countless events and meetings -- like SHOT -- where that rule is ignored by almost everyone. It's bad but it's reality.

Re: blue guns, SIRTs, etc. I am always amazed at people who insist on treating them like live guns. They were specifically invented so we could do things with them that we wouldn't do with live guns! If you cannot differentiate between how you handle a chunk of solid plastic and a real handgun, you probably shouldn't own either one of them.

Do you believe that every range session needs to have a safety brief?

No, not every session. For example, a bunch of the Staff and friends shoot together regularly. We don't have a big meeting about range safety beforehand because we've spent a hundred or more hours on the range with one another. We all know the rules and have proven it countless times. We all know the medical emergency procedure, where the blow out kits are, etc. Candidly, if someone wasn't competent enough to be trusted that much, he wouldn't be invited to attend.

In general and especially with unknown or less experienced shooters, though, yes, I think it's always a good idea to cover range safety. Even if people "know" the rules, they don't always KNOW the rules. A quick refresher before the day's activities is a good way to get people thinking along those lines. It reminds them that first and foremost we're trying to be safe.

[jetfire]

I say this (or a variation of it) before any class I teach: "Gun handling rules: please obey the four rules. Also, and I can't stress this enough, don't point your gun at me. Don't point it at your classmates. Don't point it any of your bits you don't want shot off." Then I'll explain various range rules, etc.

As far as a safety briefing goes, it depends entirely on the environment. If I'm at a class or a match with unknown shooters, I want there to be a safety brief so any newbies understand what the range rules. I also really, really like having safety areas if you need to screw with your gun. I've had guns stripped down to the bare frame on a safety table and rebuilt in between stages once, so I really like 'em.

As far as gunhandling on public ranges go, if someone is breaking one of the posted rules and there aren't any ROs around, I'll ask them very politely to stop, and point to the sign or whatever. If they don't, I'll either 1) move, or 2) get an RO.

Ultimately, my selfish bottom line is "If you want to get a Darwin Award for yourself, no skin off my ass. Just don't endanger my lovely ass while you do it and we're cool."

[JAD]

So thread split maybe, but I'm at the indoor range a timer or two ago. There's a glassed in observation area with chairs behind the line of stalls. I glance behind me (swear to god it was a three sixty, really, I'm that ninja) and I see bubba showing betty this or that about his plastic pistol (don't know what kind, but the bore was freaking HUGE) directly behind me. Bubba looks like he's an excellent DM and betty has white girl dreads, so I'm thinking this is going to be a fun interaction. I reload, holster, and step back (leaving my izzy on the bench, by the way, rather than the Yost high power that went with me). "Hi there! Could you not point your pistol at me please?" Bubba's mouth flaps open, and I can see "but it's not loaded" bubbling in his medula. "Yes sir. Of course. Sorry."

I'm sure my tone was friendly. My wife says that when I say stuff like that it does not sound or seem friendly even though I think it sounds friendly.

Bubba rotates back to his stall after a while and resumes instruction. I smile and nod at Betty as I leave, who is picking up each piece of brass as it hits the floor. Betty's mouth flaps open, but sometimes it's nice to be wearing passive earpro.

[ToddG]

I've had people at the range who, upon getting some personal one-on-one time from me free of charge to adjust their unsafe "pointing guns at other people absentmindedly" habits, have actually complained to the range management that I wasn't being nice. I'm not sure how nice you expect me to be when you've pointed a loaded gun at me multiple times on the range, but anything above zero is an unrealistic expectation on your part.

Seriously. They're guns. Pointing them at people anywhere else means those people get to shoot you. Being on the range is not some kind of protected zone where you get to be criminally negligent around me, thanks.