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Thread: "Woke culture" and Use of Force decisions (Thread culled from UoF)

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    "Woke culture" and Use of Force decisions (Thread culled from UoF)

    (SIDE CONVERSATION MADE INTO IT'S OWN THREAD - MODERATOR)


    No criticism of the Phoenix Police officers who did a great job of handling the scene.

    That said, in "woke" jurisdictions, I think concerns that an armed and violent suspect might potentially injure or kill members of the public are outweighed by political and perhaps public worry about about police use of force. While the suspect in Phoenix may have killed his original victim or take hostages in the open businesses if he wasn't shot, maybe he would not have. If he did commit some act of violence, I suppose elected officials and voters understood the consequences of "reimaging public safety" and were willing to pay that price in blood.
    Last edited by BehindBlueI's; 11-28-2020 at 11:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd View Post
    No criticism of the Phoenix Police officers who did a great job of handling the scene.

    That said, in "woke" jurisdictions, I think concerns that an armed and violent suspect might potentially injure or kill members of the public are outweighed by political and perhaps public worry about about police use of force. While the suspect in Phoenix may have killed his original victim or take hostages in the open businesses if he wasn't shot, maybe he would not have. If he did commit some act of violence, I suppose elected officials and voters understood the consequences of "reimaging public safety" and were willing to pay that price in blood.
    This, in my opinion, is one of the worst and most damaging aspects of the "woke" political culture spreading in our society, and in Law Enforcement......the desperate moral confusion that leads to paralysis. You don't have to believe that force/violence is "good" to recognize that it is at times necessary and the proper course of action. The current zeitgeist of treating every life at a potentially violent scene equally leads to paralysis, and will make what we have traditionally thought of as policing impossible. If a violent offenders life is to be protected to the same degree as the officers', or innocent members of the public, you cannot use deadly force to stop the offender from harming you or the public. And before anyone suggests this is hyperbole or exaggeration, there are politicians and appointed officials in several jurisdictions arguing explicitly for just such a policy.

    The actions of the Phoenix officers would until very recently in our society have been seen as morally right and just.....however regrettable the situation forced by the suspects actions. Now, we are seeing incidents where officers will give up containment and flat out run away from an armed suspect, giving them access to the public, rather than use force to contain them. The officers are afraid to use force because they know they won't be judged on a standard of reasonableness....and much of the public seems willing to let some strangers be injured or killed rather than have the police harm the unfortunate "person in crisis" (no one is a violent criminal anymore. Everyone is "in crisis")., unless its your family of friends put in danger by inaction. Then its "Why didn't the police DO SOMETHING."

    My point here is that all of these problems arise from the moral confusion that has set in. Many people are no longer willing or able to weigh competing harms, and settle for the childish, easy "all violence is bad!" meme, which absolved them of any responsibility for thinking through the issue. This larger issue that plagues our society has to be resolved, and unless and until it is Law Enforcement will continue to devolve to Law Encouragement, with all of the negative consequences to public safety that come with it. Rant off.

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    @AMC

    That post of yours in full of wisdom. Thank you for it.

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    You're absolutely right, AMC. I'm sure most readers, especially law enforcement also agree with you. Unfortunately, officers are disciplined and prosecuted for doing the right thing in many "woke" jurisdictions. Officers are expected to take some risks with their safety. In a "woke" jurisdictions, I think the populace, at least, the electorate has put some skin in the game by ceding the streets to violent criminals. I would assume they understood the risks of being shot or stabbed by an escaping criminal who police could lawfully and ethically shoot.

    After all, people get the quality of law enforcement they vote for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd View Post
    In a "woke" jurisdictions, I think the populace, at least, the electorate has put some skin in the game by ceding the streets to violent criminals. I would assume they understood the risks of being shot or stabbed by an escaping criminal who police could lawfully and ethically shoot.
    You're still looking at them as rational, thinking beings. Sometime in the last 12 months, I've stoped believing that. The last year has given me a new insight into events at Ruby Ridge and Heavens Gate. I better believe (not understand) the influence of people like Jim Jones and Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh.
    I no longer believe that most people will give up an irrational, but cherished, belief in the face of certain death of great injury. I can't explain it and I don't understand it. But it seems to be what we are witnessing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigguy View Post
    You're still looking at them as rational, thinking beings. Sometime in the last 12 months, I've stoped believing that. The last year has given me a new insight into events at Ruby Ridge and Heavens Gate. I better believe (not understand) the influence of people like Jim Jones and Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh.
    I no longer believe that most people will give up an irrational, but cherished, belief in the face of certain death of great injury. I can't explain it and I don't understand it. But it seems to be what we are witnessing.
    Some people becomes so completely invested in an idea that it becomes their identity. To find fault in the idea is to find fault in their own essential selves (something that even the healthiest of us have a hard time doing -it's different than finding weakness or errors in judgment/deed, it's saying that at a fundamental level you have some wrong in you) and, considering that they see themselves as good to begin with, it is unbearable psychologically. To hurt and damage the idea is to personally and deeply damage and hurt them, they would often rather die than reject what has become such an integral part of themselves.
    " La rose est sans pourquoi, elle fleurit parce qu’elle fleurit ; Elle n’a souci d’elle-même, ne demande pas si on la voit. » Angelus Silesius
    "There are problems in this universe for which there are no answers." Paul Muad'dib

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    I went ahead and made this it's own thread, as it's an important discussion in it's own right. Remember we're in a technical forum here, plenty of places to bitch about the politics behind it, but let's keep it on the topic of how this "new reality" is affecting policing in this one.


    I know I've got a little voice in the back of my head now saying "What's your family going to go through if you have to pull the trigger this time?" My wife didn't take the first one real well and there was almost no media attention there, no protests, and it was before the world went to shit. The extra stress from all the bullshit that stacks up now, that's something I have to be concerned with.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd View Post
    You're absolutely right, AMC.... In a "woke" jurisdictions, I think the populace, at least, the electorate has put some skin in the game by ceding the streets to violent criminals....
    I think the sad part of this is that I doubt that there is much matchup between those who vote that way and those whose lives and property suffer the consequences. It would be interesting to see how those who suffered death, injury, and billions of $ in damages this year in Portland etc have voted.

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    I wonder how many LE lives will be needlessly lost (or ruined) for fear of taking the proper steps to defend their own lives?

    No amount of professional liability insurance or legal coverage will compensate for that travesty. This brave new world is not a welcome one.
    There's nothing civil about this war.

    Read: Harrison Bergeron

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    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post
    I wonder how many LE lives will be needlessly lost (or ruined) for fear of taking the proper steps to defend their own lives?

    No amount of professional liability insurance or legal coverage will compensate for that travesty. This brave new world is not a welcome one.
    I think we'll lose fewer officers than some folks imagine, because fewer officers will be willing to put themselves at risk of getting into deadly force confrontation. As I mentioned in the previous post, I've seen instances of officers giving up even the idea of containment of a dangerous subject. That subject is then allowed to endanger bystanders. This is becoming rhe new normal in some jurisdictions, and folks seem blissfully unaware of rhe cost, even when additional innocents are harmed. Officers are then praised for their restraint.....see where I'm going?

    I think we'll know pretty well how many cops we lose to hesitation, because it will be on camera. The bigger cost will be to the victims of crime who will face deteriorating public safety as a result of Law Enforcement retreat...both figuratively and literally. Look at the skyrocketing murder and violent crime rates in cities nationwide. That isn't all due to "corona stress".....its mostly the retreat of LE in those communities. We'll be back to 80's and 90's levels of crime pretty quickly i think.....but without the resolve within LE to do anything about it. Where we go after that....who knows?

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