BWC night vision capability / WML and handheld discussion (breakout thread from UoF)

[vcdgrips]

(Breakout discussion culled from the Use of Force thread to have it's own thread - Moderator)

Outside of my lane.

Watching the last few of these, particularly the last two or three from PHX are most illuminating (pardon the pun.) I struck with the thought that If you do not have the brightest Streamlight or Surefire WML that will fit in a Safariland Duty Holster, you are doing it wrong.


Indeed, unless it would be against a policy that would subject me to discipline, from the outside looking in, I would be inclined to spend the extra money and go Surefire fully understanding it is 150ish dollar swing over the Streamlight.

FWIW.

[BehindBlueI's]

Outside of my lane.

Watching the last few of these, particularly the last two or three from PHX are most illuminating (pardon the pun.) I struck with the thought that If you do not have the brightest Streamlight or Surefire WML that will fit in a Safariland Duty Holster, you are doing it wrong.


Indeed, unless it would be against a policy that would subject me to discipline, from the outside looking in, I would be inclined to spend the extra money and go Surefire fully understanding it is 150ish dollar swing over the Streamlight.

FWIW.

I only have experience with one type of BWC, but I will say that it does not see as well in the dark as I do and I'm at the age where my night vision isn't as great as it used to be. If I need more light then my WML can provide, it's likely hand-held time anyway. I do want more light on a long gun, though, both due to expected distances of use and the difficulty of using a hand held with a long gun.

If others want to chime in, I don't mind breaking this out into it's own topic.

[TC215]

I only have experience with one type of BWC, but I will say that it does not see as well in the dark as I do and I'm at the age where my night vision isn't as great as it used to be. If I need more light then my WML can provide, it's likely hand-held time anyway. I do want more light on a long gun, though, both due to expected distances of use and the difficulty of using a hand held with a long gun.

If others want to chime in, I don't mind breaking this out into it's own topic.

The AXON/TASER BWC’s are designed to mimic what the human eye sees in the dark. But, I’m of the same opinion as you— I think they do a poor job at that.

[SoCalDep]

I only have experience with one type of BWC, but I will say that it does not see as well in the dark as I do and I'm at the age where my night vision isn't as great as it used to be. If I need more light then my WML can provide, it's likely hand-held time anyway. I do want more light on a long gun, though, both due to expected distances of use and the difficulty of using a hand held with a long gun.

If others want to chime in, I don't mind breaking this out into it's own topic.

Funny you mention that, because I don't have any experience with BWCs, and in several videos I've wondered what the comparison is to the actual vision of the officer. The fact I'm hearing it isn't accurate is something we should be paying attention to in these incidents. I think that's a big deal.

[SoCalDep]

Outside of my lane.

Watching the last few of these, particularly the last two or three from PHX are most illuminating (pardon the pun.) I struck with the thought that If you do not have the brightest Streamlight or Surefire WML that will fit in a Safariland Duty Holster, you are doing it wrong.


Indeed, unless it would be against a policy that would subject me to discipline, from the outside looking in, I would be inclined to spend the extra money and go Surefire fully understanding it is 150ish dollar swing over the Streamlight.

FWIW.

I'm a huge fan of getting as bright as possible. I have an older X300 (Shouldn't have sold my old X200) and several X300 Ultras, including one of the 1,000 lumen models. I also have two TLR-1HLs and a couple TLR-2 standards as well as an XC-1B, TLR-7, TLR-7A, and a few others.

Bright is good, but however bright the light is, I think I'm a bigger fan that it's on when I need it. Looking at several of the more recent videos and even more going back, it gives me a creepy feeling every time the light turns off and I know there's a bad guy there doing bad guy things. Whether it's the intensive training necessary to manipulate a WML toggle or the proper (and really really easy) training to safely and effectively manipulate a pressure switch I think being a good user is more important than the thing you're using.

All that said, I like both the X300 Ultra and the LTR HL series. I like them alot more with the DG or Contour switch.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I wore three different cameras, the first was a VieVu - slide-down lens cover that activated the recording - and two different Axon generations.

My recollection re Taser/Axon was that the company did "dumb down" the camera's low light vision capability to get it closer to the human eye. iirc, that stemmed from the Taser battery pack mounted cameras.

While I haven't had the FSI bwc class, I've seen some trickle out discussion about distance and changes in what the camera/audio can sync. I can't remember now if it is 100' or 100yds.

Where the lens is positioned is an issue in terms of what it can, can't see. The closer to the eye line, the better. We never had the temple piece cameras here. It would have been problematic for those with rx lens and having to switch back & forth in daytime, low light, etc. I wore them in three different places - on the centerline of my shirt at top of the pocket height; on my belt, off-set to the support side of the buckle;

Out of both the most recent Phx and Denair PD/Stanislaus Co S/O videos, it is really good to hear the discussion between the individual cops about positions, backdrops, etc.

[AMC]

Taser/Axon did indeed deliberately "dumb down the resolution/night vision capabilities of the Axon BWC, according to them as a direct result of issue they saw in both investigations and litigation following recorded OIS incidents. They didn't want after the fact viewers of the video to have a clearer picture of the event than the involved officers, due to the 20/20 Hindsight problem that entails.

As for positioning, our policy states that the camera shall be mounted on the chest, at the centerline. Initially they recommended high center chest, with the top of the camera in line with the top of the shirt pockets. I recommended, and most of our officers adopted, a slightly lower position, that provided a better camera view of the suspects actions when a firearm was pointed at them, or during an OIS. Can't tell you how many OIS videos I've seen that record nothing but a closeup of the officers' inner arms due to camera positioning. I agree that head mounted camera views are best, but also agree with the current limitations of those setups. I have my own beliefs about what the ultimate solution is going to be, and where the technology will take us, but we'll see.

[BehindBlueI's]

Taser/Axon did indeed deliberately "dumb down the resolution/night vision capabilities of the Axon BWC, according to them as a direct result of issue they saw in both investigations and litigation following recorded OIS incidents. They didn't want after the fact viewers of the video to have a clearer picture of the event than the involved officers, due to the 20/20 Hindsight problem that entails.

As for positioning, our policy states that the camera shall be mounted on the chest, at the centerline. Initially they recommended high center chest, with the top of the camera in line with the top of the shirt pockets. I recommended, and most of our officers adopted, a slightly lower position, that provided a better camera view of the suspects actions when a firearm was pointed at them, or during an OIS. Can't tell you how many OIS videos I've seen that record nothing but a closeup of the officers' inner arms due to camera positioning. I agree that head mounted camera views are best, but also agree with the current limitations of those setups. I have my own beliefs about what the ultimate solution is going to be, and where the technology will take us, but we'll see.

Ours are not moveable. A "pocket" is sewn into your uniform shirt, jacket, etc. at a set location. Where that ends up depends somewhat on how tall you are. I watched my first long gun deployment with a BWC to see what I could see. I was able to confirm good trigger finger discipline, at least, but it's not going to be of much use in seeing what I saw to make my decision.

[Vista461]

When we got our newest Axon cameras, some of our guys wanted the chest mounted all in one unit. I voted for the same type we had been using with the separate camera and battery/activation button and the collar or shoulder mount. My reasoning was having seen too many OIS with most of the view being the inside of the arms.

My side won out, I’ll trade the slight inconvenience of the wire for the better view that may help exonerate an Officer.

I’m also a believer in bright lights. I have the 800 lumen TLR1 HL on my gun now and may upgrade to the 1000 lumen version after the new year. To me more light is better and I’ve yet to be blinded when clearing a house or business.