NYT wrings hands over deleted diesels

[Wise_A]

Probably a different area then where "Cowboy Cadillacs" reign supreme as conspicuous consumption symbols.

Behold! The ultimate Cowboy Cadillac--the White Western TwinSteer.



Literally on my lottery shopping list.

[mmc45414]

Behold! The ultimate Cowboy Cadillac--the White Western TwinSteer.

That just needs an RV buildout on the trailer!!!

[mmc45414]

As we are starting to talk about reliability, there were two things that had my buddy tuning his Duramax, and one of them was a failure of a sensor that put it into a limp mode one time, and when he went to get it fixed the sensor was on backorder because they were all going bad. Outraged that he could have been stranded on a trip by something like a faulty sensor, he went down the path of illegally altering the truck to the point where the unavailability of the simplest repairs could leave you stranded on a trip, and ended up with something he was always scared would scatter the transmission or fuel pump if he had some fun with it.

The other reason was that his stock diesel truck wasn't as fast as my stock gas truck (that weighs about 30% less...). If this seems like odd motivation you would need to know my buddy

ETA: Maybe next we can discuss how the hell you can't still buy a 2-Stroke dirt bike that might see recreational use every other weekend but can buy a leaf blower that gets used commercially all day every day.

[hufnagel]

Yes they can and rather easily.


I worked for an OEM in engine design for 3 years. The Diesel powertrain folks were the most stressed out. New aftertreatment systems and new systems to detect if the ECU parameters have been altered among many other issues.

My perspective is that the OEMs are more concerned about alteration of ECU due to warranty concerns. The fuel injection in a diesel is a "strategy" with multiple injection events. The turbo systems can develop massive torque numbers from large displacement engines. So transmission and drivetrain components can quickly be outrun in safety margin for a given component. Even in the process of tuning the diesel, if something is fat fingered you can lock up an engine fairly quickly. Add it all up and the OEM is usually very fussy about modifications.

Anecdote--one prototype developed for 3/4 ton had no after treatment at all, no EGR, and a custom "tune" or map specifically to see what the best mileage can be had, and what power and torque would result. The prototype consistently got 27 mpg highway with many different people driving. I can't remember the power and torque numbers. The diesel folks were furious because by the time they added back after treatment (that uses raw fuel to ignite catalyst) and egr the mileage was back down to 18.

Wait, am I interpreting that right?
The engine was SO efficient that, there wasn't enough unburned hydrocarbons to light off the cat? Isn't that, like you know, a GOOD THING???

My gas jeep has an ecu program that, in the name of the holy catalyst, hangs the throttle open so as to not "spew" lots of NOx on decel. Problem is, it makes shifting a whore as now the computer isn't listening to my right foot! I hate drive-by-wire. I'm seriously looking for a prior year to swap ecu, wiring, TB, and pedal to see if I can't salvage all the work I put into it.

[Caballoflaco]

ETA: Maybe next we can discuss how the hell you can't still buy a 2-Stroke dirt bike that might see recreational use every other weekend but can buy a leaf blower that gets used commercially all day every day.

There’s lots and lots of two stroke dirt bikes sold by just about every manufacturer of dirt bikes out there. Are you referring to something you can plate and ride on the streets?

[mmc45414]

There’s lots and lots of two stroke dirt bikes sold by just about every manufacturer of dirt bikes out there. Are you referring to something you can plate and ride on the streets?

Gads, you are right!!!! I guess I haven't been keeping up as well as I thought I have...

[fixer]

Wait, am I interpreting that right?
The engine was SO efficient that, there wasn't enough unburned hydrocarbons to light off the cat? Isn't that, like you know, a GOOD THING???

Close.

The main catalyst needed a small injection quill that spit raw fuel into exhaust to reach the right temp to start getting nox knocked down.

[Trukinjp13]

I remember when diesels didn't have cats, egr, dpf or anything else. Those were the days when diesels lasted 4-6 times as long as a gasser while pulling full throttle heavy loads all day every day, and they pulled like only a diesel can, and got 40% better milage doing it. Back then damn near every vehicle sold abroad was or had a diesel model equivalent due to the fuel efficiency. Putting an egr on diesels was about the stupidest thing from a reliability/durability standpoint as it puts a tremendous strain on the engine oil and filters. It's like they only cared about what comes out of the exhaust pipe over the sniffer. They ignore the rest of the story, like that better fuel efficiency.

Government can in fact destroy anvils with rubber hammers. This is the reason I'll never own one myself, they've completely ruined them.

My life revolves around diesels. My biggest issue I run into with the newer vehicles in my fleet are emissions related. Thankfully Cummins was ahead on International on that one. International had to give up started putting Cummins in their medium duties again. Egr coking up is one of the common problems. Cummins tries to keep updating the scr systems and calibrations for Ecm. They help. The newer stuff will be going away from egr valves thankfully.

Diesels are a better setup for reliability and power. But the price of the emissions systems and complexity of the scr/dpf make it very difficult for fleets to afford them. Gassers/propane and natural gas are starting to make waves since they are basically throw away. But then you have to add in gas tank systems because you primarily had large in ground fuel tanks. It’s a mess.

This is kind of a rabbit hole on what is better. Gas vs diesel. Imho a easy way to look at is. If you have a trailer/fifth wheel over 9000lbs or are constantly hauling a heavy load through grades it’s very hard to pass on a diesel. The fuel economy alone will save money in the long run. If you have a camper you rarely pull or a ultra light and just need a run around truck then gasser may be your best bet. I would suggest you find a competent service department and use them exclusively when you can if you have a diesel. Sometimes it’s a simple fix but too many dealers have bs techs who can not properly diagnose a problem.


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[OlongJohnson]

My gas jeep has an ecu program that, in the name of the holy catalyst, hangs the throttle open so as to not "spew" lots of NOx on decel. Problem is, it makes shifting a whore as now the computer isn't listening to my right foot!

Ford has done that since the early '90s. It's actually HCs that it would emit in excess, not NOx.

ETA: Maybe next we can discuss how the hell you can't still buy a 2-Stroke dirt bike that might see recreational use every other weekend but can buy a leaf blower that gets used commercially all day every day.

There’s lots and lots of two stroke dirt bikes sold by just about every manufacturer of dirt bikes out there. Are you referring to something you can plate and ride on the streets?

Yeah, I think only Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki aren't in on it at this point. Which leaves Yamaha and KTM/Husky, in essence. I'd wager a P-F dollar that the remaining collection of indy Euros put together don't sell enough volume between them, across all models, to support the costs of developing one new bike the way Honda and Yamaha do development.

Honda has gone four stroke-only due to emissions. "Night and day" was how one of their engineers explained it to me.

[RevolverRob]

This. I had an 07 duramax. It was pretty detuned from the factory to meet emission standards. Just about everyone I know that's owned a diesel chipped them. My neighbor had a fleet of (5) F-450 Fords and they were all chipped. I never chipped mine but he thinks I'm an idiot.

I don't know what mods are needed to "roll coal" but I'm pretty sure a performance chip is going to destroy the emissions detuning.

I had my Duramax for 12 years as a tow vehicle. I won't own another diesel because of the emissions standards and detuning. Electric is the hands down tech winner for tow vehicles. Rivian PU can tow 11K. GM and Ford have invested 2.5 billion in Rivian and their battery/motor drive technology.

People need to get a clue where this will be in 5 years. It won't be diesel.

Electric will only be viable for in-town/local towing, not long-distance.

The charging infrastructure just isn't viable and I don't see it becoming viable in the next 5 years. Even the superfast chargers take hours to do what a fuel station can do in minutes. Each generation is getting better, but there needs to be an exponential decrease in charging time to get there.

I understand WHY manufacturers are focused on electric, from both a manufacturing perspective (electric vehicles will require more parts and maintenance). But hydrogen-peroxide fuel-cell technology is a long-term solution. Producing a hybrid H2O2 fuel-electric drivetrain can meet the needs of motorists everywhere, reduce emissions to near zero, and remain sustainable. The two biggest challenges are finding an extremely efficient way to make H2O2 and convincing people that a vehicle that runs on jet fuel is safe. The 'emissions' output of H2O2 is...water and oxygen.