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Thread: Shooting a Burnside carbine

  1. #1
    Member LHS's Avatar
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    Shooting a Burnside carbine

    The older I get, the more fascinated I am by that period of transition between loose powder/shot and cartridge-firing weapons. The Burnside is something I've read about before, but never expected to see anyone actually shooting, due to the oddball cartridge. But apparently Cap-and-Ball managed to make a few reloadable cartridge cases and acquire a carbine, and took it out to shoot. It's just amazing to see a piece of actual Civil War history making smoke on the range again.



    Matt Haught
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  2. #2
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    The early repeating/breechloading guns are fantastically interesting.

    Some of them are incredibly simple, yet so interesting. I often find myself passing the time on duty out here by pulling out one of our Snider or Martini-Henri display/presentation rifles from the British NWFP campaigns and giving them some attention.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  3. #3
    Frequent DG Adventurer fatdog's Avatar
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    Lodgewood is still making the cases for several of the breach loading percussion carbines.

    We have an active group of competitors in CAS locally who shoot these breech loading percussion carbines. We created a division of NCOWS at the club level called "bushwacker" for them, percussion breach loading carbine or rifle plus a percussion revolver to compete. I personally run a reproduction Smith carbine in that division.

    Paper cartridge Sharps are common. Two competitors own original Maynards, we have at least two original Burnsides as well.

    It is an absolute hoot to go compete with those things.

  4. #4
    Member LHS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatdog View Post
    Lodgewood is still making the cases for several of the breach loading percussion carbines.

    We have an active group of competitors in CAS locally who shoot these breech loading percussion carbines. We created a division of NCOWS at the club level called "bushwacker" for them, percussion breach loading carbine or rifle plus a percussion revolver to compete. I personally run a reproduction Smith carbine in that division.

    Paper cartridge Sharps are common. Two competitors own original Maynards, we have at least two original Burnsides as well.

    It is an absolute hoot to go compete with those things.
    That is so freaking cool!


    Matt Haught
    SYMTAC Consulting LLC
    https://sym-tac.com

  5. #5
    I think the "capping breechloaders" are an interesting generation in firearms development.

    Back in the CW Centennial days, there was a Gallager carbine reproduction.

    I read one favorable review of the Starr carbine. It looks rather like a Sharps but has a swinging breechblock that clamps against the barrel breech, leaving less or no gap for leakage. One article says it did not perform well at the time due to being furnished with Sharps paper cartridges which did not fill the chamber, leaving a gap that the cap flash could not always cross.

    I have been fascinated by the Westley Richards Monkeytail carbine. Because of the name? No, because it has an approach to sealing the breech behind a paper cartridge that looks as though it OUGHT to work.
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  6. #6
    Frequent DG Adventurer fatdog's Avatar
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    Smith Carbine

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    One of the interesting things about our matches is we are running real action shooting, on the clock, all rifle targets are 10" to 14" steel plates placed between 30 and 100 yards, minimum 4 rifle shots per stage so we are reloading on the clock. Rifle start position is loaded but uncapped. The revolvers start loaded and capped in the holster with 5 rounds.

    You really get a sense of what it was like to try and run these guns under time pressure and hit things.

    While they have zero chances of winning, we let the muzzle loaders compete in the "Bushwacker division if they use paper cartridges (not plastic preloads), since up until about 1866 that is what the army still issued in the west. A really good practiced muzzle loader veteran (most are ex NSSA competitors) can get 2 rounds off in a minute and get all their hits, if they are really on with their accuracy, and the steel is all under 50 yards. This is not a contest to see how fast you can make the gun go bang and not worry about accuracy (experienced muzzle loader guys can do it faster than 2 rounds and make it go bang, but precise hits will elude them). You actually have to aim and hit or you incur a 10 second penalty. But most front stuffers end up slowing down significantly to get their hits. We make a lot of jokes about timing them with a sundial, etc.

    Compared to that speed, most of the Burnside, Maynard, Sharps can easily hit 3 rounds per minute, and the more practiced shooters running the Smith (we have benchmarked it and we are confident it is the fastest on a consistent basis) can do up to 4 rounds per minute for a target array inside 50 yards and get all the hits if they don't fumble anything.

    Still not as fast as the Springfield trapdoors, no matter how you stack it. That fine motor skill of getting the cap out of your belt pouch and getting it in place is where matches are actually won or lost in bushwacker division.

    The original Smith did not have the greatest reputation. It suffered from poor cartridge durability (crude uncured rubber) unlike our nice polymer cases now. And the original rifling twist was a horrible mismatch for the bullet size and weight, destroying its accuracy potential, a situation that Pietta replicas have certainly cured by using a faster twist. I run a .50 cal 350gr bullet over 40gr FFg and the Pietta Smith will hold a 12" plate at 100 yards all day long if I take my time.

    I really look forward to our matches ramping up again post Covid because this is more fun than I can describe. (except for the cleaning part after the match)

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  7. #7
    Hillbilly Elitist Malamute's Avatar
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    A friend of my dads had a number of original civil war guns, a Smith carbine among them. I never got to shoot it, but it was cool to see and handle, and helped fire the imagination for history and frontier. He said he bought them from a store in the 1950s that had them in a barrel, look through and take your pick. I dont recall what he said he paid but it wasnt much.

    If one is interested in the history of old guns, the 2 part set of books Firearms of the American West by Garavalia and Worman has some very good information, and most have some interesting stories related to the use of the various arms mentioned. Its pretty thorough on the vast array of guns used in the American west.

    https://www.amazon.com/Firearms-Amer.../dp/0870814834

    One of the stories that stayed with me after reading of it from many sources was the 1868 Battle of Beechers Island. Jack Stillwell, one of the scouts, and one of the ones sent for help is buried at Old Trail Town in Cody. The military side of the engagement was composed primarily of civilian scouts, armed with 1860 Colts percussion revolvers and Spencer repeating carbines. I vaguely recall that they were issued 200 rds each for the carbines. The repeating carbines changed the tactics of the Indians after the first couple waves of attack when they realized the whites didnt have to reload muzzle loading guns, and became more of an extended siege than a short sharp battle. The repeating carbines no doubt also changed the outcome of the battle, the whites numbering around 50, the Indians estimated around 400-600 under Roman Nose.

    https://www.americanheritage.com/don...m-ride-over-us

    Something we dont get with modern reproduction Sharps, the original percussion guns had a pellet primer feed that activated when the hammer was cocked, so insert paper cartridge, raise the lever to close the block and cut off the rear of the paper cartridge, cock the hammer and fire. I believe someone made a reproduction with the primer feed system functional, but the tape primers arent available, and I think tape caps for cap guns were usable in them but arent as reliable.

    I had an early Shiloh percussion Sharps copy in the 1970s, and foolishly sold it. It was a New York gun, 50 cal, serial no 874 I believe. It shot very well with either round ball seated into the bullet chamber section with a short starter or the Lyman 50-70 450 gr bullet. 75 yards it made cloverleaf groups with either bullet.

    Trivia item: Many of the Civil War percussion Sharps Carbines were returned to Govt arsenals or Sharps and converted to 50-70 centerfire. You can easily identify the conversion guns by the percussion shaped hammer and the intact pellet primer feed behind the hammer. Many were also converted to sporting guns, probably more commonly thought of as Buffalo guns, and often mistakenly identified as 1874s, but they are easily identified by the long oval metal piece inlet in the left side of the stock from the cut off sling ring bar (commonly called a saddle ring) and extra screw in the bottom of the frame from a screw used in the pellet primer feed mechanism, as well as other little tells one can learn to identify. Those percussion conversion buffalo guns always seemed much more interesting to me than the later guns. A friend used to deal in Sharps Buffalo guns for a while and I was able to see, handle and shoot a fair number of them.
    Last edited by Malamute; 11-27-2020 at 08:05 PM.
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  8. #8
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    I’ve always wanted to shoot a Spenser. Ol’ Cap Roundtree from Louis L’Amour’s Sacketts carried one in the books.
    Just a dog chauffeur that used to hold the dumb end of the leash.

  9. #9
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    That was a fascinating video! Especially the mechanics of the guy turning a lathe to create a few cartridge cases - I imagine you’d have to really want to shoot something to do that!

  10. #10
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    This seemed like a good thread to post up some more BP goodness.

    How about an 1885 Remington-lee navy in .45 -70




    The guys on that channel also have another channel called FTG history that puts out some interesting work. One of the main content creators and the dude shooting the Lee above is an officer in the Army Ordnance Corps who literally wrote the book (at least a 50 page paper) on the English development of the Enfield paper cartridge for muzzle loaders as demonstrated below.

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