M28-2 vs. M681-2

[revchuck38]

I wrote a while ago that I was done with .357 Magnum for carry, based on how it felt in my 4" M19-3. I may have to take that back.

I had some leftover .357 ammo from back when I was shooting IDPA ESR - uncoated 158-grain RNLs over enough Unique to make ~1100 fps from a 4" barrel. At that level of pressure, Unique actually burns pretty cleanly. A few days ago, I decided to use some of it to give my M28-2 some exercise. I ran 50 rounds through the 28 and...and...it wasn't that bad. I ran a cylinderful of my carry ammo - R-P 158-grain SJHPs - and that wasn't bad either. Today I went to the range with my 681-2 to finish the last 61 rounds of that load, and that wasn't bad either.

Both days, I shot a couple of iterations of the Five Yard Roundup. I had never really shot these two guns back-to-back on the same course of fire. I did okay with the 28 but noticed how high the front sight went in recoil. I did better with the 681 because the muzzle didn't rise as much. Of course, this is a "DUH!"-level discovery; that's one of the reasons S&W came out with that underlug. I set a new PR for full-power .357 on that drill - 95. At the end of the range session, I shot a cylinderful of my .38 practice ammo, 158-grain plated RNs at ~830 fps, and the front sight barely budged.

My N frames will probably be semi-ceremonial carry guns, but the 681 might get carried on a more regular basis.

[HeavyDuty]

I’ve always wanted a 681, someday…

[SwampDweller]

I wrote a while ago that I was done with .357 Magnum for carry, based on how it felt in my 4" M19-3. I may have to take that back.

I had some leftover .357 ammo from back when I was shooting IDPA ESR - uncoated 158-grain RNLs over enough Unique to make ~1100 fps from a 4" barrel. At that level of pressure, Unique actually burns pretty cleanly. A few days ago, I decided to use some of it to give my M28-2 some exercise. I ran 50 rounds through the 28 and...and...it wasn't that bad. I ran a cylinderful of my carry ammo - R-P 158-grain SJHPs - and that wasn't bad either. Today I went to the range with my 681-2 to finish the last 61 rounds of that load, and that wasn't bad either.

Both days, I shot a couple of iterations of the Five Yard Roundup. I had never really shot these two guns back-to-back on the same course of fire. I did okay with the 28 but noticed how high the front sight went in recoil. I did better with the 681 because the muzzle didn't rise as much. Of course, this is a "DUH!"-level discovery; that's one of the reasons S&W came out with that underlug. I set a new PR for full-power .357 on that drill - 95. At the end of the range session, I shot a cylinderful of my .38 practice ammo, 158-grain plated RNs at ~830 fps, and the front sight barely budged.

My N frames will probably be semi-ceremonial carry guns, but the 681 might get carried on a more regular basis.

Do you think its the full underlug, or the lower bore axis? (at least I think the L frame has a lower bore axis...)

Remington 158gr SJHP is my defense load for my GP100 (and soon to be two GP100s with the 5" half lug I have ordered). In a 4" stainless GP100 with Hogue Tamer grips, it's not uncomfortable at all, though the front sight goes up quite a bit. Meanwhile, full-house 125gr loads recoil less but have substantial blast. I had been looking for something to split the difference between the two and find a .357 load that was still solidly within Magnum territory with good terminal performance, but with middle-of-the-road blast, flash, and recoil.

I thought the answer was the Winchester Silvertip 145gr. It's pleasant to shoot and performs well, but it became apparent that Winchester's QC in current times was simply not there. So now I'm kind of back to the drawing board.

I'm interested in the Barnes 140gr XPB load, but I have yet to buy it and, while I believe some on here have vouched for it's good performance, others have brought up significant overpenetration concerns.

Out of my 6" blued Python, I found the Speer Gold Dot 125gr GDHP to be pleasant to shoot, but its my understanding from those more knowledgeable than I here that the 125gr .357 Mag loads can suffer from underpenetration. I wonder if the Gold Dot is an exception, given that it's a modern bonded load, unlike the old school Federal/Remington SJHP 125gr loadings.

[03RN]

Golden sabers might be a good compromise load for you.

[SwampDweller]

Golden sabers might be a good compromise load for you.

125gr? I'm not finding a 158gr version (or anything in between). How do these perform in testing?

[03RN]

125gr? I'm not finding a 158gr version (or anything in between). How do these perform in testing?

Not sure this one is organic

[jh9]

(at least I think the L frame has a lower bore axis...)

Without going back to measure, K-L-N frames have increasingly taller frame windows, with the barrel sitting higher as you go up in frame size. So a 686 compared to a 27 will have more of its weight sitting lower and further out, which should provide some recoil mitigation as revchuck38 said. The overall weights between the 27 and the 686 are similar, but the distribution of that weight will make the L-frame a bit less sporty. As a confession, I've shot a bunch of magnums through the Ls, but my .357 Ns have always been gamer guns. What he said makes sense, but I can only compare magnums between the Ks and Ls and coming from the other direction yeah, the Ls are a LOT nicer to the shooter.

I'm interested in the Barnes 140gr XPB load, but I have yet to buy it and, while I believe some on here have vouched for it's good performance, others have brought up significant overpenetration concerns.

Out of my 6" blued Python, I found the Speer Gold Dot 125gr GDHP to be pleasant to shoot, but its my understanding from those more knowledgeable than I here that the 125gr .357 Mag loads can suffer from underpenetration. I wonder if the Gold Dot is an exception, given that it's a modern bonded load, unlike the old school Federal/Remington SJHP 125gr loadings.

The 125gr gold dot gets 11" in bare gel and 14.5" in heavy clothing. In an ideal world it would get 12" instead of 11" to check the box. I assume, but don't know, they're generally adequate through auto glass and other barriers. Speer has current data for the entire test gauntlet on their website for the 158 and as far as penetration goes it seems like too much but I defer to the experts.

Hornady has data for its 125gr Critical Defense and 135gr Critical Duty rounds. The 125 does 13" in heavy clothing with no other results mentioned, so I assume sub-12" in bare gel. The 135 does 14-18" across the board with .50-.56 expansion in bare gel/heavy clothing. AFAIK this is typical of Critical Defense/Duty. Duty is designed to pass the full test battery. Defense is on the shallow side for bare gel and heavy clothing, with no consideration given to barriers.

I don't know what the all-copper Barnes bullets are doing. I assume the 125s are probably the one ones that don't have the same issue the 158 gold dots have: excessive penetration.

[SwampDweller]

Not sure this one is organic

The first one using what is confirmed to be 10% ordnance gel is promising in particular... I wish he did more than 1 shot, though. I wish there was some more formal testing I could find of this load (and any other .357 Mag load for that matter).

I wonder if there's any testing out there of the Barnes 125gr load? I would think it wouldn't have the low penetration problems that older tech .357 Mag 125gr ammo had.

The Hornady 135gr CD load seems good, though I've heard some concerning reports of poor QC from Hornady ammunition as of late. I've never experienced it myself, though. I've shot a couple of boxes, and POI isn't as off as I thought it would be.

[jtcarm]

Do you think its the full underlug, or the lower bore axis? (at least I think the L frame has a lower bore axis...)

Remington 158gr SJHP is my defense load for my GP100 (and soon to be two GP100s with the 5" half lug I have ordered). In a 4" stainless GP100 with Hogue Tamer grips, it's not uncomfortable at all, though the front sight goes up quite a bit. Meanwhile, full-house 125gr loads recoil less but have substantial blast. I had been looking for something to split the difference between the two and find a .357 load that was still solidly within Magnum territory with good terminal performance, but with middle-of-the-road blast, flash, and recoil.

I thought the answer was the Winchester Silvertip 145gr. It's pleasant to shoot and performs well, but it became apparent that Winchester's QC in current times was simply not there. So now I'm kind of back to the drawing board.

I'm interested in the Barnes 140gr XPB load, but I have yet to buy it and, while I believe some on here have vouched for it's good performance, others have brought up significant overpenetration concerns.

Out of my 6" blued Python, I found the Speer Gold Dot 125gr GDHP to be pleasant to shoot, but its my understanding from those more knowledgeable than I here that the 125gr .357 Mag loads can suffer from underpenetration. I wonder if the Gold Dot is an exception, given that it's a modern bonded load, unlike the old school Federal/Remington SJHP 125gr loadings.

Wait, what 5” half lug? Blued by chance???

[SwampDweller]

Wait, what 5” half lug? Blued by chance???

Yes, this one:

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