I went back to just irons and I might like it better

[Eyesquared]

Even after 9 months of almost exclusively shooting and dry firing a dot gun, I still find it hard to resist focusing on the front sight when I shoot irons. If I remind myself to target focus I can do it, but on anything complicated I tend to shift my focus back to the front sight which honestly disappoints me, as I was hoping the time away from irons would help me break some habits. I still shoot irons better than I did 9 months ago on account of being a better shooter than I was 9 months ago.

Don't know if I shoot irons as well as a red dot but I will find out shortly as I have a spare slide coming for my CO gun to shoot production with.

[ASH556]

So I understand your analysis, is it correct that the last live fire rounds you fired were in August, and you recently went to iron sights in dry fire, and on that basis, meaning just what you observed in dry fire, you decided you prefer irons to a dot?

Yes.

What is your vision like ?

One can shoot target focused with irons out to 7-25 yards depending on your skill level. discussed here.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ing-with-irons

What I've seen with LE shooters, is the ability to switch back and forth between dots and irons seems to depend on the individual. I've not experienced it but I've heard some known competent shooters report the same issue switching back and forth.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....sight-handguns

20-15 in both eyes. Excellent vision.

The point of this thread was not “dots suck.” Just that picking my head up out of the RDS hole and looking at some things gave me the POV that maybe it is also OK to not shoot an RDS pistol and that I personally am not losing much if anything really.

Like I said, for distance (beyond 25yds) it is a big help. I also think it’s mostly because you can see where you’re holding better.

[HCM]

Yes.



20-15 in both eyes. Excellent vision.

The point of this thread was not “dots suck.” Just that picking my head up out of the RDS hole and looking at some things gave me the POV that maybe it is also OK to not shoot an RDS pistol and that I personally am not losing much if anything really.

Like I said, for distance (beyond 25yds) it is a big help. I also think it’s mostly because you can see where you’re holding better.

If you have better than 20/20 vision then you won’t see as much advantage from the RDS since you are able to see more feedback from the Irons than most people.

As I mentioned the difficulty you had switching back to front sight focus seems to be an individual thing some people experience it some don’t.

You have also put in the work to be able to call shots on irons.

[GJM]

Yes.



20-15 in both eyes. Excellent vision.

The point of this thread was not “dots suck.” Just that picking my head up out of the RDS hole and looking at some things gave me the POV that maybe it is also OK to not shoot an RDS pistol and that I personally am not losing much if anything really.

Like I said, for distance (beyond 25yds) it is a big help. I also think it’s mostly because you can see where you’re holding better.

Of course it is OK to shoot iron sights and not a dot. I am just trying to understand how you can conclude what you have without live fire.

[Hot Cereal]

IME most LE firearms instructors suck as instructors and are more line safety officers and target graders. There is also a lot of insular, big fish, small pond syndrome. When your training cadre fails you you have to seek out proper instruction on your own. Right or wrong that's the reality.

FI's (LE or otherwise) need 3 skillsets, ability to shoot, ability to communicate / teach and ability to diagnose / analyze/ mitigate (diagnostics). IME the third is the most important and the least common among LE instructors. If you want good diagnostics you will need to seek outside training, likely at your own expense. Ask me how I know.....

Ironically, you are being myopic in your response, I acknowledged that the experience you had with RDS is common and I've had several of my officers report the exact same experience you have with RDS on carbines. However, you are ignoring the part about how that experience is correctable. Once we have gotten them using the RDS properly, they have a different experience and better results with the RDS.

Gunfights are "open class events." There is no such thing as "cheating" or "crutches," just winners and losers. I want my guys and gals to be as effective as possible.

As for opinions, all opinions are not created equal. Ex: "All Glocks shoot left"

Unknowingly using something improperly and complaining about not good results is an "experience" - but it is not a basis for a valid opinion. It should be the basis for questions, such as is this thing junk or am I doing it wrong ?

For example, when I first tried the RMR I had trouble acquiring the dot compared to other RDS. However, what I eventually figured out is that the issue wasn't the RMR but the large Co-witness sights I (wrongly) chose taking up half the window. Once I swapped for lower sights that didn't take up half the window it was fine.

Knowing you are using something improperly and complaining about not getting good results instead of trying to learn how to use it properly is either doubling down on stupid or an excuse for not putting in the work. Americans are lazy and love hardware solutions to software problems. There is nothing unique about that.

Re: Offset,tThe circle dot reticle was a big selling point for the FBI's selection of the Romeo4M in lieu of the Aimpoint and IMHO, the only reason Eotech was able to stay in business after their thermal drift fiasco. The Vortex UH-1 even replaced the 6 o'clock hash mark with a triangle to facilitate this.

As PF's founder said "feelings" lie (https://pistol-training.com/archives/5108 ). My "opinions" are based on the quantifiable performance of both myself and hundreds of shooters I have taught or trained with getting measurably better results in terms of speed and accuracy. The timer and target don't have "opinions" and numbers don't lie.

How long have you been shooting iron sights ? Because, as I can personally attest, it takes more work to re-learn something new than to learn something from scratch. Speaking of Academy classes, The Houston PD just ran an academy class with all RDS pistols to gather data on new shooters vs shooters converting from irons. They do a 3 week block of firearms training. Normally they don't get everyone qualified until the 3rd week (or washed out). The RDS class were all qualified by the end of the first week with no washouts. This mirrors the experience of the U.S. Army which is now starting basic trainees with optics first, then teaching iron sights. The rationale for this is that "reading" iron sights aka calling your shots is it's own skill set. Optics provide more feedback about what the gun is doing with the need for "translating" the feedback from the irons letting the new shooter focus on correcting their fundamentals based on what the gun is doing in response to their inputs.

You're going to do what you want, and I don't expect to change your mind. You also may be one of the people who experiences Phoria ( https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?44872-Phoria ) so your experience may not be comparable to that of others.

However, one of the unique things about PF is the signal to noise ratio here. I'm posting this for those who might read this thread later in search of valid information.

I am really not sure what your point is. I'm not sure why you think I was using an RDS improperly. Because I said I constantly felt like I was 'chasing" the dot, or because my scores never validated the desired outcome of better performance? I'm looking through the optic, focusing on the target and the starbursty-blob of a bobbles with every slight movement of the rifle, which is making my brain slow down my shot placement processing, which in turn causes me to shoot slower, with no accuracy improvement, and sometimes a slight accuracy performance decrease. For me, the RDS made zero sense and still does. I have astigmatism, my brain just doesn't want to process a blobby red splotch bouncing around on a target. Those things won't change no matter how much training I do. I have an idea that you have your opinion that you hold as the only truth verified through specific studies and data that only supports your desired outcome, essentially a confirmation bias. I completely know and understand that some people benefit from the use of RDS. Rock on with it. My opinion really is not that they are a tool that shouldn't be used, but that if you can adequately shoot irons on a pistol their cost is hard to justify.

Another concern I have with RDS equipped pistols is their ability to withstand extreme cold weather. I'm sure quality offerings like a Trijicon product will soldier through just fine, but how will the batteries fare? I've had flashlights go from 100% battery to 0% battery in a few short hours on an extremely cold, like -20 degrees plus wind, plus snow cold nights. I switched from CR123 batteries in my flashlight to quality 18650s with a spare light in my bag because there are plenty of nights where those batteries just won't hold a charge because it is so cold. That would be another factor in this equation that I would need to fully understand and likely test.

How well does the open emitter of a RDS handle being covered in thick, heavy, wet, lake effect snow? We average 100+ inches of snow every winter and that sticky wet heavy snow gets on stuff and doesn't want to come off. If the emitter and lens of the RDS gets covered how do I even employ the back-up irons? These aren't deal killers, but valid queries to answer before I put a lot effort into equipping a pistol with an RDS.

As for the HPD experiment, were the RDS recruits qualified on both RDS and irons in one week, or just irons? Seems to me if "we're" employing an RDS we're teaching both-RDS and irons, which is fine.

I will probably never use a RDS again, only because I have astigmatism and the dots just look like starbursty-blobs to me. If someone comes up with some kind of prism type pistol optic I would be 100% on board to test that out.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

@Hot Cereal if you are willing to give pistol RDS another shot check out the Holosun 407CO. The reticle is an 8MOA ring. For me the difference between that reticle and every other pistol RDS reticle is tremendous, with little to no reticle distortion despite my astigmatism.

I am not seeing anything controversial about this thread or any need to get emotional. I know that FOR ME the rds is superior for 3 big reasons:
1. Allows tremendously better shot calling, which leads to me attaining skill at a faster rate, saving money on ammo and leveling the playing field in spite of my sub par vision.
2. Greatly increases the effective range of a handgun, and greatly increases hit probability with highly precise shooting at any distance. For realistic scenarios of civilian defense from criminals you could argue this doesn't matter much, but it gives me the warm and fuzzies.
3. Gives me a sighting system that is fully functional with my severely myopic eyes if I am not wearing contacts or glasses, as is likely in home defense.

Despite the above, the gun I have on me most of the time is an iron sighted handgun. Irons do have big advantages in durability and ease of maintenance, not to mention cost and concealability. My performance with iron sighted handguns hasnt diminished since I went mainly to RDS. I suck at shot calling with irons, but then again I did before I switched as well.

[ASH556]

Of course it is OK to shoot iron sights and not a dot. I am just trying to understand how you can conclude what you have without live fire.

Well, I have tens of thousands of rounds on irons and about 3,000 on a dot. I have records on performance metrics for both systems.

There’s also the logistics and handing characteristics and finally a je ne sais quoi factor.

I tend to be a minimalist by nature and maybe that’s a factor here.

[YVK]

Even after 9 months of almost exclusively shooting and dry firing a dot gun, I still find it hard to resist focusing on the front sight when I shoot irons. If I remind myself to target focus I can do it, but on anything complicated I tend to shift my focus back to the front sight which honestly disappoints me, as I was hoping the time away from irons would help me break some habits.

Mirrors my experience. Always had a production slide but never used it. I am shooting irons now because of ammo situation, using up old stock of .45 and saving my 9. It is tough to stay target focused but I don't want to erase the gains I've made with the dot. Fun experience.

[Duke]

I’m a minimalist in terms of what is easier and faster to poke holes in shitbags with

Irons - no thanks.

[LtDave]

So one day while pistol shooting at paper targets, it dawned on me, "Why aren't you buying paper targets with coloring that contrasts with your sights?" You know what, it helped. I shoot black iron sights so now I look for orange or some other color that contrasts with those sights. It does help. I tend to shoot POA/POI as opposed to 6 o'clock.

On my Beretta CX4, I shoot a red dot. I really like that. That sight has the ability to shoot either red or green. Depending on what target I am shooting, one color may show up better that the other.

My favorite bullseye pistol target is a five spot archery target. Bullseye is white surrounded by dark blue. Works great for me with irons or RDS. Looks like this: