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Thread: I went back to just irons and I might like it better

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Hstanton1 View Post
    25 yd B8s are my main focus in live fire at the moment. That and trying to shoot the smallest groups I can at 10 yards.

    I suppose the only issue I have with that method is that the red dot makes shooting at that distance far easier for my eyes, but on slow fire I donít really get the negative feedback that I need to work through with the LEM trigger. Itís just pre travel to a lighter wall and crisper break than that of my g45. I understand that shooting something like Defoorís hat qual or presscheck no fail would help with that a bit due to time pressure, but it seems to me like standards such as the super test will be good measurements for me, Iíve got an established baseline on that drill and the regular test that I can measure improvement from in more layers than just accuracy at distance.

    Obviously accuracy at distance is still going to be a very important thing for me to practice, but slow fire B8s arenít that conducive to working through better managing the LEM trigger and I donít have a good baseline on 25 yard drills with time pressure to draw meaningful conclusions from yet.
    I think it is futile to expect anyone to come up with a perfect set of standards to say if it's a good idea to carry a gun or not. Why not just pick a few drills that seem reasonably representative of what you need to do with your CCW (most likely not 10 rounds at 25 yards, although I don't think that's a bad thing to work on), and then shoot both with your red dot gun and your ironsighted gun, and carry whichever one you do better with?

    Also you don't really need live fire to figure out the trigger mechanics of the LEM, do you? Why not just work on that in dry fire and see what happens?

    Also I don't like measuring progress with B8 scoring rings. A 96 on a B8 could be eight 10s, and two 8s, or it could be six 10s and four 9s. The first one would indicate a much lower level of consistency than the second one, but the numbers don't capture the difference very well.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hstanton1 View Post
    25 yd B8s are my main focus in live fire at the moment. That and trying to shoot the smallest groups I can at 10 yards.

    I suppose the only issue I have with that method is that the red dot makes shooting at that distance far easier for my eyes, but on slow fire I donít really get the negative feedback that I need to work through with the LEM trigger. Itís just pre travel to a lighter wall and crisper break than that of my g45. I understand that shooting something like Defoorís hat qual or presscheck no fail would help with that a bit due to time pressure, but it seems to me like standards such as the super test will be good measurements for me, Iíve got an established baseline on that drill and the regular test that I can measure improvement from in more layers than just accuracy at distance.

    Obviously accuracy at distance is still going to be a very important thing for me to practice, but slow fire B8s arenít that conducive to working through better managing the LEM trigger and I donít have a good baseline on 25 yard drills with time pressure to draw meaningful conclusions from yet.
    If you want a "magic number" to tell you you are a good enough shot to carry shoot your state's minimum standard LE qualification course. If you pass (which you will) drive on.

    Alternatively you can find the FBI qualification course online as well as here on PF. The FBI/DEA Q target aka "milk bottle" target is easy to find or can be ordered off Amazon.

    Then go to a public shooting range and watch the other shooters. How many of those people shooting the ceiling are busting out no fail drills or hat quals ? Those are worthy goals but it's the "1%" of the pistol shooting world.

    Marksmanship and gun handling are fun but the two least used skillsets in personal defense / carrying.

    Do some searching here on things like awareness, avoidance, deterrance and Managing Unknown Contacts or MUC. Pay particular attention anything by a guy named SouthNarc or a guy named Tom Givens. Most (not all, but most) civilian fights range from entangled to 10ish yards.

    Going back to shooting:

    I love me some B8s but for realistic defensive skills time is always a factor.

    I carried an issued LEM exclusively for 8 years. As PF member Daggaboy has said so well, the LEM is a "people management trigger" not a shooting performance trigger. Unless you are pointing guns at people regularly (i.e. LE), you may be better served by a more shootable trigger.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Pay particular attention anything by a guy named SouthNarc or a guy named Tom Givens. Most (not all, but most) civilian fights range from entangled to 10ish yards.
    Agreed. Add Paul Sharp to this list, and others too I'm sure.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyesquared View Post
    I think it is futile to expect anyone to come up with a perfect set of standards to say if it's a good idea to carry a gun or not. Why not just pick a few drills that seem reasonably representative of what you need to do with your CCW (most likely not 10 rounds at 25 yards, although I don't think that's a bad thing to work on), and then shoot both with your red dot gun and your ironsighted gun, and carry whichever one you do better with?

    Also you don't really need live fire to figure out the trigger mechanics of the LEM, do you? Why not just work on that in dry fire and see what happens?

    Also I don't like measuring progress with B8 scoring rings. A 96 on a B8 could be eight 10s, and two 8s, or it could be six 10s and four 9s. The first one would indicate a much lower level of consistency than the second one, but the numbers don't capture the difference very well.
    I certainly donít expect to come up with perfect standards, but I think itís a good topic to consider, especially for someone who is relatively new to shooting such as myself.

    Regarding LEM, I do work on it in dry fire considerably, but live fire is still necessary, if nothing else so I can be sure that Iím not lying to myself in dry fire.

    I agree that B8 scoring rings alone arenít a good measure, but combined with a time score and photos of each target have provided me with a decent reference of what each 94 whatever X actually looks like.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I think a ďclean pressĒ is overrated for defensive and USPSA shooting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hstanton1 View Post
    Could you elaborate on this for a noob?
    Because defensive and USPSA shooting is different than unlimited time bullseye shooting. Some or all of you, the sights and target may be moving, and the goal is to strike the aiming area as fast as possible. Better to learn to grip the pistol and move the trigger to hit whatever you are aiming at, under the conditions you are likely to encounter.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  6. #66
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    I went back to just irons and I might like it better

    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Because defensive and USPSA shooting is different than unlimited time bullseye shooting. Some or all of you, the sights and target may be moving, and the goal is to strike the aiming area as fast as possible. Better to learn to grip the pistol and move the trigger to hit whatever you are aiming at, under the conditions you are likely to encounter.
    Good post. I agree entirely. Given limited time to train, we have to decide what to focus on. Shooting 97+ consistently on a B8 takes a lot of work--time that could be better invested in more important skills. For defensive and USPSA type shooting, I would say that when you can consistently hit the A zone of a USPSA target at 25 yds, it's time to move on from accuracyóat least until a lot of other skills have been mastered.
    "BJJ is sort of like nonconsensual yoga"
    "You donít really graduate from certain problems or certain thingsÖ like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hstanton1 View Post
    I certainly donít expect to come up with perfect standards, but I think itís a good topic to consider, especially for someone who is relatively new to shooting such as myself.

    Regarding LEM, I do work on it in dry fire considerably, but live fire is still necessary, if nothing else so I can be sure that Iím not lying to myself in dry fire.

    I agree that B8 scoring rings alone arenít a good measure, but combined with a time score and photos of each target have provided me with a decent reference of what each 94 whatever X actually looks like.
    Shooting LEM well requires pretty much shooting only LEM. I found LEM was hard to fully replicate dryfire. you might want to look at a coolfire trainer which uses gas (CO2 ?) to cycle the slide. A Mantis X would be a good investment as well given the current ammo situation. It's an accelerometer which attaches to your pistol and links to an app on your phone via blue tooth. It provides data on where the gun was when it went off as well as pre and post ignition movements. One thing I like about it is you can use it in both dry and live fire to help validate (or not) your dry practice.

    The only other thing that helped was Double Action trigger time with a DA revolver. If you are going to stick with LEM a good .22 cal DA revolver might be a good investment.

    As for the other stuff, if you get in a fight, it's gonna be what it's gonna be. You just do the best you can. Expectations are detrimental.



    As that Tom Givens guys said:

    "You Don't Get to Pick the Day You Need Your Gun. Someone else will pick that day and they will only tell you at the last minute."
    Life won't wait for you to feel ready.
    Last edited by HCM; 11-26-2020 at 04:45 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlong17 View Post
    Agreed. Add Paul Sharp to this list, and others too I'm sure.
    Letís not have the new members going vegan right away :-)

    Specific to awareness avoidance and MUC I would add the late great Dr. William Aprill.

    http://ballisticradio.com/?s=William+Aprill

    http://ballisticradio.com/2013/05/14...0-may-12-2013/

    http://ballisticradio.com/2013/06/17...-june-16-2013/

  9. #69
    I had new shooter over with family yesterday (thanksgiving isnít cancelled here because, fuck yoí government over reach)

    Anyway.

    With My carry gun, Within 3 shots he split a Queen Card at 7M with basically zero instructions.

    So. Irons are rated G for not Gonna use them anymore


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  10. #70
    S.L.O.W. ASH556's Avatar
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