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Thread: I went back to just irons and I might like it better

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hstanton1 View Post
    how do we know we’re ready to carry the gun? As in, is there a specific set of metrics that I should be able to meet and then say “ok, I’m still learning but this is a good baseline of proficiency”
    From time to time, vcdgrips posts some standards he either came up with or got from somewhere else over the years, I forget which. Except for the last part, they can be conducted with less than half a box of ammunition.
    Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform and...

    ...Hit an 8-inch circle at 3 yards in under 2 seconds, COLD, every time?
    ...Do a FAST test in under 10 seconds, COLD, every time with no points down?
    ...Taking a big step off line, hit an 8-inch circle at 5 yards, with 5 rounds, in under 4 seconds, COLD, every time?
    ...Hit an 8-inch plate at 10 yards, at will, COLD, every time with no time constraints? (bang, tink, bang, tink, bang, tink etc.)
    ...Shoot a 5-shot group at 5 yards that you can cover with a credit card, COLD, every time?

    Have you taken any formal training beyond a CCW class in the last 24 months?
    For a deeper dive, we can take a look at minimum competency as John Daub wrote about.
    https://blog.hsoi.com/2013/07/11/min...ensive-pistol/
    https://blog.hsoi.com/2014/03/15/min...tol-revisited/
    • Draw from concealment
      - Perhaps with movement (sidestep) on the draw
    • Make multiple, acceptable hits
    • In a small area
      - 5″, 6″, 8″ circle”? Consider human anatomy.
    • From close range
      - Think “within a car length” (0-5 yards)
    • Quickly
      - 3 seconds or less
    • Using both hands
      - Enables multiple acceptable hits, quickly
    ---
    That said, I’ve maintained that minimum competency is not good enough. You need to work to a higher standard (that Paul Ford comment about 70% of your worst day). I would say the current “3 Seconds or Less” drill is a good “higher standard” to work towards. Other good “higher standards” would be:

    FBI Qualification
    F.A.S.T.
    Gunsite Standards
    Rangemaster Level V
    Hackathorn Standards
    Farnam Drill

    But again, this is higher. We’re talking minimal.
    ---
    Those are just the immediately relevant snippets. Definitely read both articles for the full context.

  2. #52
    Knows Not The Platypus RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
    I haven’t drawn a pistol to a sight picture in a week.

    1.57 cold start 3x5 Drill at 21feet this AM. clean.


    Seems If a dude is worried about not being able to shoot a lot - a dot takes up the slack.

    Attachment 63610
    Yea man. But how many rounds have you fired in the past two months? Hint - if it is more than 0, then it's more than I've fired in the past two months.

    FWIW - I am NOT claiming that irons are superior to the dot in anyway.

    Just that right now, without the time to both conduct dry fire drills and then live fire confirmations regularly it isn't right for me to fiddle around with any if my mechanics. I know what my good sight picture(s) look like with the guns I'm carrying. I know with just dry practice, I can maintain an 8-second FAST and ~90 on The Test. I've gone as long as 14-months with just dryfire. If I don't mess with my mechanics I can maintain that proficiency. Of course, if I add in even monthly live fire or ratchet dryfire up to four times a week I can improve.

    As for jumping over the hump into dot land, everyone is different. Being a low volume live fire, moderate volume dry fire, I'm going to use coursework to get myself comfortable with the updated mechanics of the sighting system. I won't be fucking with anything else. Ideally, once I'm up to speed the dot will allow me to maybe improve my baseline iron sights scores with the same level of dryfire.
    Seriously guys, are we not doing 'phrasing' anymore?

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by ASH556 View Post
    Obviously this has been an off year for at least live fire for most of us for obvious reasons. I'm only at 1,545 live 9mm rounds for the year and the last ones were back in mid-August. That said, I do keep up with a fairly simple, yet useful dry fire routine. I judge its usefulness by the lack of performance fall off I've seen this year when I do get to live fire.

    For those that care, it is as follows and I do it 2-4X per week:

    10 clean presses 2 handed freestyle
    10 clean presses SHO
    10 clean presses WHO

    A clean press means not movement of the dot/sights through the press to completion of break. A failure at any point of the process requires starting over again.

    I also work presentations from concealment and (to a lesser degree) reloads. I probably work presentations 1-2X per week and reloads 1-2X per month. Part of the reason for not working the reload as much is that I've worked it quite a bit in the past and with a full-size frame (G17, G45, etc) can sit under 1.5 pretty comfortably. Conversely I cannot get my big meaty heel out of the way with a G19 enough to get the mag to reliably drop, and as I'm not gaming currently and the reality of a speed reload in a CCW gun fight is pretty low, I just don't focus on it as much.

    Anyway, I took the RMR off my G19 yesterday and started working with irons again. 2 things:

    1. I think I like it, like REALLY like it
    2. Holy target focus Batman! It took like 15 min for my brain to switch to a front sight focus on presentation again.

    I still think the dot has its advantages, primarily for distance shooting and I will probably go back to one, but neither do I consider it the "must have" that so many seem to.
    I will echo the sentiment of your claims seeming to be premature due to lack of measured metrics to provide objective assessment data.

    Your “clean press” requiring no movement of the sights or dot seems to have a potential shortcoming in its use as your comparative measurement: it’s much easier to see movement with a dot than it is irons, especially depending on what kind of one or the other you have. For instance, if you ran a smaller dot of the 3.25 MOA variety against something like standard Glock “ball & cup” sights you’ll get waaaaaay more visual feedback from the dot versus the fatter Glock sights. Whereas one would interpret a better press with the irons than the dot, you’d get very different visual feedback even if you pressed the trigger exactly the same way between the two.

    There’s also a potential mental hitch of sorts between utilization of a dot versus irons in that if we took my example above, I might feel as though I’m shooting faster with irons versus a dot because the irons seemingly need a bit less refinement because they’re larger and easier to align. Sort of similar how if you used a thinner front sight than a wider one, at least in my observations. I may take less time to get a shot off with one over the other, but will it be a more accurate shot? One must find the acceptable trade-off between the speed and accuracy without sacrificing too much of one or the other.

    I prefer the dot for shooting more precisely and don’t feel I lose anything by using it at closer distances. It just takes some mental reprogramming on what is an acceptable sight (or rather dot) picture because of the tendency to want to over-analyze the dot placement.
    “It’s time for us to unite so we can heal” - spoken by the people who have been viciously attacking others of differing political alignment for four years. I think they misspelled “heel”.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yung View Post
    From time to time, vcdgrips posts some standards he either came up with or got from somewhere else over the years, I forget which. Except for the last part, they can be conducted with less than half a box of ammunition.


    For a deeper dive, we can take a look at minimum competency as John Daub wrote about.
    https://blog.hsoi.com/2013/07/11/min...ensive-pistol/
    https://blog.hsoi.com/2014/03/15/min...tol-revisited/




    Those are just the immediately relevant snippets. Definitely read both articles for the full context.
    Thank you, this is very helpful. As others have suggested I am pursuing getting a second P30 with irons as well.

  5. #55
    Just got my production slide for my USPSA gun so I did some dry fire with it. So far the big difference coming from shooting an otherwise identical red dot gun is that I'm having to relearn what an acceptable sight picture looks like on each target. Transitions are also a little tricky, for now I'm just trying to keep everything target focused. Coming from the SRO which sits very high and doesn't obstruct the target much, it is a little odd getting used to having pieces of metal covering up half the target. Sometimes the gun ends up pointed slightly lower than intended because of that.

    Target focus wise, with my terrible vision it is sometimes hard to tell what my eyes are focusing on when I whip my head around, because my glasses slip and everything ends up a little out of focus. I normally wear contacts to the range but it's not worth the trouble for dry fire.

  6. #56
    I think a “clean press” is overrated for defensive and USPSA shooting.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I think a “clean press” is overrated for defensive and USPSA shooting.
    Could you elaborate on this for a noob?

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Hstanton1 View Post
    Certainly good logic there, I suppose part of the issue for me is that I’m switching platform and sighting system. Ideally I’d get another P30 and get it milled, but that’s just not in the cards right now.

    I suppose the only issue I see with the above method is that, even after an amazing class like the one Jedi puts on, how do we know we’re ready to carry the gun? As in, is there a specific set of metrics that I should be able to meet and then say “ok, I’m still learning but this is a good baseline of proficiency”

    Not attacking your plan at all, just thinking out loud so to speak about how to quantify this transition.
    That's a really personal question. Some people are better at certain things starting off. When I first found P-F, I shot an amazing FAST. I thought that meant I was good. After following some people here and seeing what they could do at 25 yds and other things, I realized I sucked. I got better, but not great. I would advise you to find what you're weak at and improve from there, and use that improvement as a metric. If you use what you're naturally good at as a metric you won't have a good idea of when your skill is deteriorating.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by MickAK View Post
    That's a really personal question. Some people are better at certain things starting off. When I first found P-F, I shot an amazing FAST. I thought that meant I was good. After following some people here and seeing what they could do at 25 yds and other things, I realized I sucked. I got better, but not great. I would advise you to find what you're weak at and improve from there, and use that improvement as a metric. If you use what you're naturally good at as a metric you won't have a good idea of when your skill is deteriorating.
    25 yd B8s are my main focus in live fire at the moment. That and trying to shoot the smallest groups I can at 10 yards.

    I suppose the only issue I have with that method is that the red dot makes shooting at that distance far easier for my eyes, but on slow fire I don’t really get the negative feedback that I need to work through with the LEM trigger. It’s just pre travel to a lighter wall and crisper break than that of my g45. I understand that shooting something like Defoor’s hat qual or presscheck no fail would help with that a bit due to time pressure, but it seems to me like standards such as the super test will be good measurements for me, I’ve got an established baseline on that drill and the regular test that I can measure improvement from in more layers than just accuracy at distance.

    Obviously accuracy at distance is still going to be a very important thing for me to practice, but slow fire B8s aren’t that conducive to working through better managing the LEM trigger and I don’t have a good baseline on 25 yard drills with time pressure to draw meaningful conclusions from yet.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Hstanton1 View Post
    25 yd B8s are my main focus in live fire at the moment. That and trying to shoot the smallest groups I can at 10 yards.

    I suppose the only issue I have with that method is that the red dot makes shooting at that distance far easier for my eyes, but on slow fire I don’t really get the negative feedback that I need to work through with the LEM trigger. It’s just pre travel to a lighter wall and crisper break than that of my g45. I understand that shooting something like Defoor’s hat qual or presscheck no fail would help with that a bit due to time pressure, but it seems to me like standards such as the super test will be good measurements for me, I’ve got an established baseline on that drill and the regular test that I can measure improvement from in more layers than just accuracy at distance.

    Obviously accuracy at distance is still going to be a very important thing for me to practice, but slow fire B8s aren’t that conducive to working through better managing the LEM trigger and I don’t have a good baseline on 25 yard drills with time pressure to draw meaningful conclusions from yet.
    I think you're focusing too much on the distance part of that post.

    Some drills probably came easier to you than others. I would use those drills as a basis on whether or not you're ready to carry that platform. Not the ones that you were naturally better at.

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