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Thread: I went back to just irons and I might like it better

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    My long and short - RDS pistols are tools. Some folks have a brain that I think is well wired to shoot a dot and translate it to irons and switch back and forth, others probably do not.

    I did not initially learn to shoot iron sights with a target focus or with both eyes open and found it virtually impossible to do. One trip down the lane with a dot-equipped pistol allowed me to develop both skills and translate them back to irons. Now I can do target focused shooting with both eyes open. So for me, a dot is/was an extremely useful tool in eliminating old habits. That's what I got out of my first foray into dot land.

    I found it difficult to get a consistent index and shoot the dot as quickly as I did irons. What I realized then and what I still believe now is...shooting a dot-equipped pistol requires enough initial retraining of the brain that it's not a 'short-term' exercise. You have to get into it, committed, to learning how to run the dot on a pistol. At the time (and now), I wasn't able to commit the effort needed to get up to speed (literally and figuratively) with the dot. Like trying to 'master' multiple types of triggers simultaneously, it isn't a good idea.

    If you're going to run a dot-equipped gun, I suggest you shelve everything else and focus on shooting/dryfire the dot entirely for ~6-12 months. I would not try to move back and forth between dot and no dot guns. Once you're over the initial hump of the learning curve, you'll likely be able to go back to irons without an issue, whether you'll want to is a different story.

    ___

    I have a dot equipped gun in the safe right now. And I'll be building a second one Soon™ to take a deep dive back into dots probably next year or 2022. This I'll be doing in anticipation of continued vision degeneration. I'm in no risk of going blind, but my father was using bifocals by the time he was 40. I suspect I won't be too far behind that age when I'll need them too. At that point even a blurry dot and target focus will get the job done. I know that from shooting red-dots on rifles and shotguns.

    And in an effort to simplify my life and brain...I'll be setting up all my defensive oriented long-guns in a similar manner, including the shotguns.
    How would you negotiate this while maintaining proficiency with an iron sighted carry gun? I’m certainly invested in the RDS gun that I have, but not yet comfortable enough with the gun itself, the dot, or the presentation to carry it.

  2. #42
    Knows Not The Platypus RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hstanton1 View Post
    How would you negotiate this while maintaining proficiency with an iron sighted carry gun? I’m certainly invested in the RDS gun that I have, but not yet comfortable enough with the gun itself, the dot, or the presentation to carry it.
    That is a good question and I don't have a great answer.

    Here is going to be my solution:

    1) Have two RDS pistols and assorted equipment (holsters, etc.)
    2) Have 2,000 rounds of ammo on hand
    3) Take all of these things to a Modern Samurai Project class - have Scott teach me how to use it all
    4) Only use, carry, dryfire, and livefire these guns for 12-months after that.

    If I had the ability to do some of the higher volume shooting some of guys do (like Duke, GJM, ClusterFrack, etc.) I might try to work through it myself. Lacking that ability, it's easier to simply schedule a weekend long class and have an expert come around and give me excellent instruction and a thousand or more reps under that individual's instruction.
    Seriously guys, are we not doing 'phrasing' anymore?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    That is a good question and I don't have a great answer.

    Here is going to be my solution:

    1) Have two RDS pistols and assorted equipment (holsters, etc.)
    2) Have 2,000 rounds of ammo on hand
    3) Take all of these things to a Modern Samurai Project class - have Scott teach me how to use it all
    4) Only use, carry, dryfire, and livefire these guns for 12-months after that.

    If I had the ability to do some of the higher volume shooting some of guys do (like Duke, GJM, ClusterFrack, etc.) I might try to work through it myself. Lacking that ability, it's easier to simply schedule a weekend long class and have an expert come around and give me excellent instruction and a thousand or more reps under that individual's instruction.
    Certainly good logic there, I suppose part of the issue for me is that I’m switching platform and sighting system. Ideally I’d get another P30 and get it milled, but that’s just not in the cards right now.

    I suppose the only issue I see with the above method is that, even after an amazing class like the one Jedi puts on, how do we know we’re ready to carry the gun? As in, is there a specific set of metrics that I should be able to meet and then say “ok, I’m still learning but this is a good baseline of proficiency”

    Not attacking your plan at all, just thinking out loud so to speak about how to quantify this transition.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Hstanton1 View Post
    Certainly good logic there, I suppose part of the issue for me is that I’m switching platform and sighting system. Ideally I’d get another P30 and get it milled, but that’s just not in the cards right now.

    I suppose the only issue I see with the above method is that, even after an amazing class like the one Jedi puts on, how do we know we’re ready to carry the gun? As in, is there a specific set of metrics that I should be able to meet and then say “ok, I’m still learning but this is a good baseline of proficiency”

    Not attacking your plan at all, just thinking out loud so to speak about how to quantify this transition.
    It seems to me you are overthinking the RDS transition and making it a bigger deal than it needs to be. You would use the same metrics you would use for any carry gun. Say, for example, consistent concealment draws in under X seconds, an XX FAST, XX El Prez, etc.

  5. #45
    Knows Not The Platypus RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hstanton1 View Post
    Certainly good logic there, I suppose part of the issue for me is that I’m switching platform and sighting system. Ideally I’d get another P30 and get it milled, but that’s just not in the cards right now.

    I suppose the only issue I see with the above method is that, even after an amazing class like the one Jedi puts on, how do we know we’re ready to carry the gun? As in, is there a specific set of metrics that I should be able to meet and then say “ok, I’m still learning but this is a good baseline of proficiency”

    Not attacking your plan at all, just thinking out loud so to speak about how to quantify this transition.
    Bandwidth. Everyone has limited bandwidth. I've tried this road before too...my first foray into dots was with a new platform too. And it didn't work.

    If I had been smart, I would have yanked the dot off the gun and run just the new gun for 6-12 months with irons, then stuck the dot back on top. If you're comfortable with shooting a dot, you can change the gun out underneath it, if you're comfortable with the gun underneath you can add the dot. Trying to introduce both at once seems to be a recipe for disappointment and frustration (my experience only here).

    In terms of baseline proficiency, that goes to a whole 'nother topic (in many respects). But the short answer is, 'No there isn't a specific set of metrics'. And the long answer is, 'Not there isn't a specific set of metrics, but there are a handful of really good drills that allow you to evaluate where you are with your gun(s) overall.'

    The Test, FAST, Hackathorn Standards, Bill Drill are four that come to mind right off the bat. All seem to be solid metrics for establishing baselines of proficiency. To determine if you're 'up to snuff' is subjective, but evaluate with the tools you know you shoot best, then do them with the tools you're working to develop your skills on. When you're close (how close is close? that's up to you), then you're at 'good baseline for proficiency'. At least in my, non-professional, internet opinion. However, make sure you're doing these drills and evaluating metrics frequently and that you're changing as few variables at a time as possible.

    Personally, I'm doing well with my 1911s these days. So my next foray into dot land will be a 1911 with a dot on top. Besides some J-Frame (now replaced with an LCP) shooting and dryfire all of my 'belt handgun' shooting for the past 3 (almost 4) years has been with a 1911. I have a pretty good idea where I am 1911-wise and won't be changing anything besides the sighting system.
    Last edited by RevolverRob; 11-23-2020 at 04:54 PM.
    Seriously guys, are we not doing 'phrasing' anymore?

  6. #46
    Knows Not The Platypus RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mac View Post
    It never was cool.
    Fixed it for you.

    #1911MasterRace
    Seriously guys, are we not doing 'phrasing' anymore?

  7. #47
    King of Craft Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    That is a good question and I don't have a great answer.

    Here is going to be my solution:

    1) Have two RDS pistols and assorted equipment (holsters, etc.)
    2) Have 2,000 rounds of ammo on hand
    3) Take all of these things to a Modern Samurai Project class - have Scott teach me how to use it all
    4) Only use, carry, dryfire, and livefire these guns for 12-months after that.

    If I had the ability to do some of the higher volume shooting some of guys do (like Duke, GJM, ClusterFrack, etc.) I might try to work through it myself. Lacking that ability, it's easier to simply schedule a weekend long class and have an expert come around and give me excellent instruction and a thousand or more reps under that individual's instruction.
    I found it surprisingly easy to switch back and forth between irons and a RDS as long as the gun was the same. The index is similar—slightly higher sight offset with RDS. Why not work with both in dryfire and maintain proficiency and confidence?

    Dots fail, so it seems like a good idea to be good at shooting a dot gun with backup sights.

    Also: Taping over the front of the RDS to force target focus seems to be increasingly popular.
    "BJJ is sort of like nonconsensual yoga"
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    Is it cool to carry a Glock with irons again? <a href="https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&amp;action=hash&amp;hash=Askin gForAFriend" target="_blank">#AskingForAFriend</a>
    Mo, but it will be again, as soon as @GJM asks for his Holosuned G43X slide back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hstanton1 View Post
    How would you negotiate this while maintaining proficiency with an iron sighted carry gun? I’m certainly invested in the RDS gun that I have, but not yet comfortable enough with the gun itself, the dot, or the presentation to carry it.
    If you want as a complete control as possible with minimal anxiety, you either get a second P30 with irons, or second G45 with a dot, and you continue to dry fire the dot primarily and irons some. At some point you'll find the difference not significant enough to worry about. I got some mileage on the dot and switching between different guns (which is what I do for games vs carry), regardless of sighting differences between the two, is suboptimal. In a development stage it is frankly counterproductive.
    “Well," said Pooh, "what I like best," and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    Mo, but it will be again, as soon as @GJM asks for his Holosuned G43X slide back.If you want as a complete control as possible with minimal anxiety, you either get a second P30 with irons, or second G45 with a dot, and you continue to dry fire the dot primarily and irons some. At some point you'll find the difference not significant enough to worry about. I got some mileage on the dot and switching between different guns (which is what I do for games vs carry), regardless of sighting differences between the two, is suboptimal. In a development stage it is frankly counterproductive.
    YVK, GJM forgot you have that slide and Holosun, so you are good to keep carrying it.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  10. #50
    I haven’t drawn a pistol to a sight picture in a week.

    1.57 cold start 3x5 Drill at 21feet this AM. clean.


    Seems If a dude is worried about not being able to shoot a lot - a dot takes up the slack.

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