Kinda like why we rented one of the danish diesel subs for two years?Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
Kinda like why we rented one of the danish diesel subs for two years?
Swedish, IIRC. The diesel subs have a history of sneaking up and 'sinking' our carriers. Some naval journals argue that we are short of subs so that we should order a run of the new Japanese ones, that are supposed to be good. Have them build them in real time. Of course, we would screw around with this or that and it would take years and the costs would be a gigantic overrun.
I think even the older French nuclear subs made to the carriers.
Cloud Yeller of the Boomer Age
Lots of more experts than me. But while our sub fleet is totally nuclear with expensive cost. Quantity with a quality behind it, and knowledgeable employment of technology, while knowing your adversary, has a difference when it comes to naval battles. A carrier group is great to send. We are the only ones who can do that in both oceans.
Yes you are correct Swedish.
Nuclear submarines have the capability to deploy rapidly. If you're not concerned with an adversary having the ability to do long range ocean surveillance, a nuclear boat can really haul ass.
Diesel boats are good for local/defensive ops. Modern and well-maintained ones do a great job of imitating a hole in the ocean when they don't have to move around much. For transoceanic work, they're not so good.
If we have to march off into the next world, let us walk there on the bodies of our enemies.
To be fair, the Russo-Ukraine War is pretty much the first near-peer lengthy war in nearly eight decades. The only war close to being a naval war was the Falklands War.
(The various Indo-Pakistani Wars may qualify, but I don't know enough about them to opine.)
Last edited by Stephanie B; 08-16-2023 at 07:43 AM.
If we have to march off into the next world, let us walk there on the bodies of our enemies.
They had modern (for its time) armor and fighter planes. There was some use of the Indian carrier with some old Seahawk jets. IIRC, some missile boat attacks by the Indians on Pakistani ports and an Indian frigate/destroyer sunk by a Pakistani sub. But I would have to look up details to see if I got it right.
The Falklands almost had a carrier to carrier battle but the Argentine ship couldn't get in the right position with the wind (not my lane) to launch its A-4s. Luckily for the British, the Argentians didn't get all their Exocets for their Etendards. One interesting nuance was that they were exploring putting torpedoes on their Pucara prop planes and doing a low level WWII torpedo run on the British. The war ended before that.
I like alternate history and things like the Final Countdown movie. I think the old WWII carriers had a longer reach with their planes and if Kido Butai had detected the Nimitz and launched a massive strike on it, would it have gotten through? So NERDY.
Cloud Yeller of the Boomer Age
Not exactly. The Iran-Iraq war, 1981-88, was a major conventional state vs state conflict, with at least a million combat dead and unknown numbers of civilian casualties. Not much naval component except for the "war of the tankers" in the Gulf. (And a couple of USN ships that got in the way.) Near and dear to my heart, as I got to be an observer, from the perspective of Baghdad, '84-'86.
In addition, and I know you know; while the “weapons platform” piece of our submarine fleet, and surface fleet, is often getting all the limelight; the Star Trek level of SIGINT/EW and “systems platform” is where the money and effectiveness really meets the whetstone.
Last edited by PNWTO; 08-17-2023 at 01:22 PM.
Making it Rain, Guam & Caron edition
Of the 22 U.S. Navy warships and auxiliaries tasked with supporting Operation Urgent Fury– the invasion of Grenada– some 40 years ago this week, two really stand out, the old ‘phib USS Guam (LPH-9) and the newer Sprucan, USS Caron (DD-970).
Guam gets a big nod, of course, because, of the 116 American servicemen wounded in the four-day operation, Guam treated no less than 77 in her cramped hospital suite after they were medivaced to her deck just offshore.
Speaking of which, Guam was also the main launching/refueling point for the helicopters of the 82nd Airborne and 22nd MAU for the operation and logged a whopping 1,214 launchings and landings in Urgent Fury.
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits - Mark Twain
Tact is the knack of making a point without making an enemy / Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
Apropos of nothing in this conversation, naval historian Jon Parshall has a handful of cats and he refers to them as Kitty Butai. How I wish I'd known about (or thought of it myself) when we had 5 cats at one time...
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits - Mark Twain
Tact is the knack of making a point without making an enemy / Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
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