Lakeland FL Double Murder

[SD]

This is in part the problem, after his 1991 double murder + rape conviction the formula for being released needs to have the additional factor added into the equation, will this offender commit additional violent crime upon release. Good time and conditional release should not apply for violent criminals, they need to remain incarcerated or placed under civil confinement after they complete maximum sentencing requirements. They are predators its what they do they do nothing else and at sometime and place another unsuspecting worthy community member becomes a statistic. Court system, DA offices need to be held accountable for releasing these people back into society and only then will things change. Common denominator here is the police did a good job getting the criminal off the streets so lets keeps them out of our communities!

I attended church with a homicide investigator who worked the Corll serial killings, in the Seventies. I was just a bit younger than some of the victims. A local teenage bully met an unrelated bad end, on a remote road, not so far away. One of my classmates, David Greenwood, turned out to be a local serial killer, along with his older brother, though they were not as prolific as the Corll/Henley/Brooks team. so, sadly I had an early realization and “inoculation,” regarding evil. The Greenwood brothers did their deeds so long ago, it is not easy finding links to on-line sources, but one of them recently went back to prison, providing one source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Corll

https://www.chron.com/neighborhood/c...d-12833088.php

Edited to add: The Greenwood brothers may not quite meet the definition of “serial” killers, officially, but I believe some of their victims were never found, or the cases could not be tied to them.

[blues]

My next door neighbor in Apartment 1D...we lived in 1C.

Alice Crimmins



(First woman I had a crush on as a kid. I'd run to the store for her to pick up smokes or sundries. I know how to pick 'em. )

[OlongJohnson]

One thing that's striking me reading this thread is the copycat aspect of some of these. Seems like in the '70s and '80s, "serial killer" was the thing. Since Columbine, it's been "mass shooter," trying to go out in a "blaze of glory" all at once and not so much secretly racking up the count over time. At least in the public consciousness as I'm aware of it.

Not that I study stuff like this, I can't think of a nationally famous serial killer in the "classical style" like the Green River Killer after Dahmer. Then you have McVeigh in 1995, then Columbine in 1999. Was the spectactular effect of blowing up a building the pivot in the form taken by the snakes inside peoples' heads?

Another question: Is there any evidence that Hitchcock's Psycho provided some notable degree of inspiration for the "classical style" of serial killer?

[SD]

This is an example: Violent criminal that should have been identified and held under civil confinement after completion of court imposed sentence.
N.Y. man who shot dead 2 firefighters killed grandmother in 1980
Story highlights
William Spengler killed his grandmother with a hammer in 1980
He spent about 18 years in prison and eight more on supervised parole
Law enforcement authorities don't know of any problems since his release
On Monday, Spengler, 62, set a fire then ambushed and killed two firefighters
William Spengler had killed before.

The first time, presumably, was in 1980. Then about 40 years old, Spengler struck his grandmother with a hammer. A year later, he was convicted of first-degree manslaughter in her death.

Flash forward to before dawn Monday, in Webster, New York, a town of about 43,000 people located 10 miles east of Rochester. That’s when and where, Police Chief Gerald Pickering said, Spengler presumably set his and his sister’s home ablaze, lugged weapons up a hill, then waited.

When local firefighters arrived at the scene, Spengler fired and killed again.

’Chaos’: Gunman ambushes, kills 2 firefighters

Authorities haven’t given a motive for the latest violence, which left two firefighters dead and two other firefighters and an off-duty police officer from a nearby town wounded.

And they can’t ask the shooter, who was found dead of a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head around 11 a.m., about six hours after first calls about the fire came in.

But the Webster police chief has his own idea about why this happened.

“Just looking at the history, obviously this is an individual who had a lot of problems, to kill his grandmother,” Pickering said. “And I’m sure there were … mental health issues involved.”

After his 1981 manslaughter conviction, Spengler was given an indeterminate sentence, said Monroe County District Attorney Sandra Doorley.

He ended up spending nearly 18 years behind bars until his release in 1998. Through 2006, Spengler was on supervised parole, during which time Doorley said she wasn’t aware of any events suggesting he had gotten into further trouble.

Nor, Pickering said, had police had any “contact with him criminally” in the recent past.

Until Monday.

By then, Spengler was living in a home in Webster, likely with his sister, who was still unaccounted for Monday afternoon. Their mother had died sometime in the past year, according to Pickering.

He’d accumulated weapons, bringing “several different types” with him before the shootings, the police chief said. It is not known how he obtained these firearms, but ex-felons are not allowed to possess weapons.

But because Spengler had them, two families are in mourning. Many of his former neighbors are homeless, because having a gunman on the loose slowed fire crews’ efforts to corral a blaze that eventually destroyed seven homes.

“It’s Christmas Eve. This is a day where people are getting together to celebrate a holiday,” Lt. Gov. Bob Duffy told reporters in Webster. “This tragedy is just unthinkable and unspeakable.”

[pangloss]

I’ve taken Tom’s class twice. I remember him saying “it’s nothing personal; they need your car and you need to be dead.”

In my class in Everett WA in 2017, Tom played an audio recording of a 911 call by a woman with her child. Later it was determined she was beaten to death. With a hammer. It was disturbing.

A very icy feeling went through my blood. I’m not used to dealing with violent criminal behavior, and coming to grips with the fact humans exist who would do this to one another brought me up short.

Society seems to dimly view the concept of "disillusion," but I've thought since high school that to say you were "disillusioned" is to concede that you didn't have a good grasp on reality in the first place. Intellectually, I've always known that really evil people exist, but listening to that recording revealed the depths of human depravity. The woman's name was Karen, and the guy who murdered her is still out there.

[Caballoflaco]

One thing that's striking me reading this thread is the copycat aspect of some of these. Seems like in the '70s and '80s, "serial killer" was the thing. Since Columbine, it's been "mass shooter," trying to go out in a "blaze of glory" all at once and not so much secretly racking up the count over time. At least in the public consciousness as I'm aware of it.

Not that I study stuff like this, I can't think of a nationally famous serial killer in the "classical style" like the Green River Killer after Dahmer. Then you have McVeigh in 1995, then Columbine in 1999. Was the spectactular effect of blowing up a building the pivot in the form taken by the snakes inside peoples' heads?

Another question: Is there any evidence that Hitchcock's Psycho provided some notable degree of inspiration for the "classical style" of serial killer?

There are still serial killers out there doing their thing, it’s just that they’re less likely to make national news these days.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture...n-vann-103158/



I think Dan Carlin does a good job of exposing some of humanities traits that we like to think don’t exist.

“Painfotainment” talks about the almost universal popularity of public executions and torture throughout history. It’s currently free. Something to think about: How many simulated homicides do you watch on tv on a weekly basis for entertainment?”
https://www.dancarlin.com/product/ha...ainfotainment/


“Suffer the Children” - “Dan’s exposure to the idea of “psychohistory” gets him thinking about how children were raised in the past. Could widespread child abuse and bad parenting in earlier eras explain some of history’s brutality?”

https://www.dancarlin.com/product/ha...-the-children/

[RevolverRob]

One thing that's striking me reading this thread is the copycat aspect of some of these. Seems like in the '70s and '80s, "serial killer" was the thing. Since Columbine, it's been "mass shooter," trying to go out in a "blaze of glory" all at once and not so much secretly racking up the count over time. At least in the public consciousness as I'm aware of it.

Not that I study stuff like this, I can't think of a nationally famous serial killer in the "classical style" like the Green River Killer after Dahmer. Then you have McVeigh in 1995, then Columbine in 1999. Was the spectactular effect of blowing up a building the pivot in the form taken by the snakes inside peoples' heads?

The thing is, most serial killers aren't quite as prolific. And a lot of them never antagonize the police or manage to avoid capture for an extended period of time. If you look at the list of serial killers since 2000, and exclude Malvo and Muhammad (DC Shooters) from the list, then you have 32 individuals arrested/convicted/suspected of being serial killers. Many of them would fit the 'classical style'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._United_States

Chicago PD and the FBI now freely acknowledge that they believe a serial killer, or perhaps a pair, are the 'Chicago Strangler' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Strangler - To date, there are 55 victims lumped together in a single investigation now. Possibly as many as 75 victims fit the MO of the killer(s) stretching back to 2002.

Not sure it gets more 'classic' than that.

Another question: Is there any evidence that Hitchcock's Psycho provided some notable degree of inspiration for the "classical style" of serial killer?

I've never seen that. I suspect it did not, because there were A LOT of pretty messed up 'classical' serial killers long before Hitchcock. Various 'Rippers', H. H. Holmes, Belle Gunness, etc.

___

I've lived a fairly sheltered life, but have experienced my share of violence in various forms over the years. For me, the realization came young, when one of my middle-school classmates was arrested after repeatedly burning his sister with a metal rod heated on the stove. This didn't surprise me, because the kid was pure hate and had a nihilistic and sadistic worldview. He clearly had a lot of psychological issues, and by the time he was 12-13 years old, I think he was beyond repair, he was so damaged that he would likely never have recovered from it (he is dead now, killed in a drug deal gone wrong, when he was 17).

You really can't sit in a classroom next to someone like that and think that every single person is just a peachy, wonderful, caring, person. I think the thing is, you can experience someone like that, but block it out (and many folks do). I'm not that type of person, so it stuck with me. And I think the thing is, most folks, probably anyone who has ever gone to school or worked retail/warehouse/low-paying entry jobs - has experienced a person that is really fucked up. The thing is, many of us were taught that fucked up people just 'aren't okay' and can be 'helped'. I'm not convinced that this is the case.

I once asked the late Dr. William Aprill, who was one of the few experienced individuals who had worked with many violent youth offenders, what the solution was for these individuals that are 'psychopaths in waiting'. And Dr. Aprill told me that efforts were focused on ways to identify these potential offenders as early as possible and put them through a lot of therapy and importantly, remove them from the stimulus and culture that allows them to be psycho/sociopaths, i.e., our culture. I asked him if he thought they could be 'repaired' or 'saved' and his answer was, "Maybe in a few cases, but in most cases probably not." - My understanding from him was that because we usually cannot identify these individuals until irreparable psychological damage has been done to them, that they usually cannot be 'fixed'.

All-in-all, what I learned from him was that people who regularly exhibit signs of psycho/sociopathic behavior likely are precisely that and there are a lot of signs and behaviors we can identify. Probably the vast majority of which are 'spidey sense' tingling. If your inner alarm bells start ringing, the solution is to not fucking ignore them. Most people still have the bells, but they have conditioned themselves to ignore them, due to sociocultural norms.

[11B10]

RJ:

Carry your damn gun.[/QUOTE]




RJ ^^^^^ best advice...ever! I don't know about the rest of "us," but the perp's choice of tools has always freaked me out.

[Gearqueer]

All-in-all, what I learned from him was that people who regularly exhibit signs of psycho/sociopathic behavior likely are precisely that and there are a lot of signs and behaviors we can identify. Probably the vast majority of which are 'spidey sense' tingling. If your inner alarm bells start ringing, the solution is to not fucking ignore them. Most people still have the bells, but they have conditioned themselves to ignore them, due to sociocultural norms.

I couldn’t agree more. One of the people in my life who made the back of my hair stand up ended up being the shooter in the linked video. I was his Sergeant in the Marines. I caught him with a pistol in his barracks room. I took the pistol and put it into the armory for safekeeping as the process began for his psych discharge. The Marine Corps must have given the pistol back to him at some point because it was the same one used in this active shooter incident. Sad. Carry your gun and be prepared.

https://youtu.be/E9TJKzIVUDU


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[ranger]

The mental health facilities are closed and the prisons are being emptied while law enforcement is being told to stand down - this probably will get worse (sarcasm).